Self bat

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The point was that in rule 9, the only violation was for starting another dribble after the first had ended. In 4-15-4, touching the ball a second time before it hits the floor is not one of the ways a dribble ends, BUT 4.15.4 tells us that this indeed is a violation.

Yup, and grabbing the ball is one of the ways that a dribble ends(as per 4-15-4), and ending a dribble is not a violation. That's what happened in the original post and that's my point.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yup, and grabbing the ball is one of the ways that a dribble ends(as per 4-15-4), and ending a dribble is not a violation. That's what happened in the original post and that's my point.

And my point is after the ball was batted up in the air, it was touched before it hit the ground. Is that still "ending the dribble", even though it is not listed in 4-15-4? Or, does the wording of 4-15-2 imply a violation? I thought it was a violation.

I'm going back to chew on my big mac now.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

And my point is after the ball was batted up in the air, it was touched before it hit the ground. Is that still "ending the dribble", even though it is not listed in 4-15-4? Or, does the wording of 4-15-2 imply a violation? I thought it was a violation.

How is it a violation to end the dribble?

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

How is it a violation to end the dribble?

Now I think I get it. Since the player in the OP didn't continue the dribble, this is not "during a dribble" but is the end of the dribble. Since the player shot the ball there is no violation.

Does the fact that the player did not return to the ground have any bearing on this call? Or would it still be a no call? BTW, I'd wager if this situation was on a test, most would get it wrong.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

How is it a violation to end the dribble?

It isn't.

But, is the wording in 4-15-2 saying the touch after the bat and before the ball hits the ground is simply "ending the legal dribble", or is it not permitted, and therefore a violation?

It's true it is not listed as a specific violation in Rule 9, but the second touch after a bat into the air is also not listed as a specific way to end the dribble, in 4-15-4. In just about any real-world play, doesn't the dribble end after the ball has bounced?

Let's say A1 is standing in place, dribbling with their right hand. A1 then starts to push the ball towards the floor towards their left side, as if to start a drive to the left. After the ball leaves their right hand, but before the ball hits the floor, A1 bats the ball with their left hand to push it back towards the right. Is this a legal play? Or, in a Nevada-type play, () how many times can they bat it back and forth between their hands before it hits the ground? The batting doesn't meet meet any of the requirements of ending a dribble in 4-15-4.

That's why I believe they put in the wording of 4-15-2, to say once the ball has been batted/pushed to the floor, (or even up into the air), it must be permitted to hit the floor before the next touch.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

It isn't.

But, is the wording in 4-15-2 saying the touch after the bat and before the ball hits the ground is simply "ending the legal dribble", or is it not permitted, and therefore a violation?

It's true it is not listed as a specific violation in Rule 9, but the second touch after a bat into the air is also not listed as a specific way to end the dribble, in 4-15-4. In just about any real-world play, doesn't the dribble end after the ball has bounced?

Let's say A1 is standing in place, dribbling with their right hand. A1 then starts to push the ball towards the floor towards their left side, as if to start a drive to the left. After the ball leaves their right hand, but before the ball hits the floor, A1 bats the ball with their left hand to push it back towards the right. Is this a legal play? Or, in a Nevada-type play, () how many times can they bat it back and forth between their hands before it hits the ground? The batting doesn't meet meet any of the requirements of ending a dribble in 4-15-4.

That's why I believe they put in the wording of 4-15-2, to say once the ball has been batted/pushed to the floor, (or even up into the air), it must be permitted to hit the floor before the next touch.

The ball can't be batted into the air and then touched by the hand again before hit hits the floor. In this case, the ball never hit the floor again, as the dribble ended.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

The ball can't be batted into the air and then touched by the hand again before hit hits the floor. In this case, the ball never hit the floor again, as the dribble ended.

Ok, now I think we're getting closer.

I agree with your first statement. Now go back and re-read the OP - the player was dribbling up the court, batted it up over the defender, went around the defender, caught it before it hit the ground, and shot it. The catch-and-shoot was the touch after the bat.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Ok, now I think we're getting closer.

I agree with your first statement. Now go back and re-read the OP - the player was dribbling up the court, batted it up over the defender, went around the defender, caught it before it hit the ground, and shot it. The catch-and-shoot was the touch after the bat.

And if he had continued to dribble after touching the batted ball again before it hit the floor, then we would have a violation...but he didn't, so we don't...but you're right - I think you are getting closer.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Ok, now I think we're getting closer.

I agree with your first statement. Now go back and re-read the OP - the player was dribbling up the court, batted it up over the defender, went around the defender, caught it before it hit the ground, and shot it. The catch-and-shoot was the touch after the bat.

Batting the ball, imo, means tipping it away or swinging at it. It's entirely possible that the code does not describe this particular play, which I find amazing in this day and age of the game.

Somebody needs to define the word bat in the Federation code? To me, BAT does not mean PASS! One poster has already stated the reason why this bat restriction was put in the code in the first place. It was for players like Wilt Chamberlain who would tip the ball all the way down the court from one end to the other and never dribble it, thus dunking the ball in the end to score. Too big of an advantage to the offensive team with a player bigger than everyone else. Balance of fair play has to be realized here.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

The ball can't be batted into the air and then touched by the hand again before hit hits the floor. In this case, the ball never hit the floor again, as the dribble ended.

True. I think what's hanging people up is the separation of the determination from the time of occurrence.

Once the ball is batted upward, it cannot be determined that the dribble ends until the ball is caught, because opportunity has to be granted for it to hit the floor. However, once that determination is made, the ball not having hit the floor before being caught, the dribble is known retroactively to have ended when the ball was so batted. Therefore the batting of the ball to himself did not occur during an interval when the player was dribbling, and it's a violation whose name is apparently undetermined.

This is not the only example in basketball of "suspense" in a determination. AFAIK in USA-Canada rules (NCAA-AAU) 3 seconds in the lane may similarly be determined retroactively when a player with the ball in the attacking lane stops penetrating toward his goal.

Robert

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Once the ball is batted upward, it cannot be determined that the dribble ends until the ball is caught, because opportunity has to be granted for it to hit the floor. However, once that determination is made, the ball not having hit the floor before being caught, the dribble is known retroactively to have ended when the ball was so batted. Therefore the batting of the ball to himself did not occur during an interval when the player was dribbling, and it's a violation whose name is apparently undetermined.

Where may I find a rule in any ruleset that states that batting the ball ends a dribble?

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

And my point is after the ball was batted up in the air, it was touched before it hit the ground. Is that still "ending the dribble", even though it is not listed in 4-15-4? Or, does the wording of 4-15-2 imply a violation? I thought it was a violation.

I'm going back to chew on my big mac now.

I think he's ending the dribble (in the OP) because he brings the ball to rest in his hands (4-15-4 a.) and possibly touches the ball with both hands (4-15-4 c.)