Self bat

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by just another ref

4.15.4 SITUATION D: While dribbling: (a) A1 bats the ball over the head of an opponent, runs around the opponent, bats the ball to the floor and continues to dribble. RULING: Violation in (a) because the ball was touched twice by A1's hand(s) during a dribble, before it touched the floor.

Where, in rule 9, is this violation?

9-5, because he's dribbling a second time (batting the ball to the floor) after the dribble ended (touching his hands a second time while in the air).

Even the casebook play says that it is a violation if it occurs "during a dribble." Catching the ball and shooting it is not a dribble.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

9-5, because he's dribbling a second time (batting the ball to the floor) after the dribble ended (touching his hands a second time while in the air).

Even the casebook play says that it is a violation if it occurs "during a dribble." Catching the ball and shooting it is not a dribble.

Where is it written that touching the ball a second time while in the air ends the dribble?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Where is it written that touching the ball a second time while in the air ends the dribble?

Exactly. That's his point(and mine). There's a difference between ending a dribble and committing an illegal act during a dribble. In the original case being discussed, the player legally ended his dribble when he grabbed the ball with both hands.

Apples and kumquats.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Exactly. That's his point(and mine). There's a difference between ending a dribble and committing an illegal act during a dribble. In the original case being discussed, the player legally ended his dribble when he grabbed the ball with both hands.

Apples and kumquats.

Correct.

It is not illegal if he is dribbling, bats the ball, goes around the opponent and catches the ball before it hits the floor.

It would only be illegal if it was the first dribble and he never allowed the ball to hit the floor.

Legal play.

[Old School]

What has happen here is a matter of you outsmarting yourself. You are hung up on the words, you have become too technical. There is another aspect of officiating bb you will not find in the rulebook. It's called the intent and purpose of the rule. The referee has the authority to make a ruling on points not specifically covered in the rules. It would be nice to be able to take every given situation that can happen in a game and relate it to wording in the book. However, that is not reality. For those that needs to be able to see this wording, looking for the next closes thing in the book doesn't make your point right, which may not be anywhere close to what actually happened. You then try to use this wording to confuse the issue. I think we all need to take a step back and think a minute about the intent and purpose of the rule. This is where you will find your answer.

And that answer is, you can not past the ball to yourself. I hear someone say a pass must be between teammates. Well this clever player, outsmarted you. He passed the ball to an invisable teammate, then went and recovered it himself, which was his intention all along. Quit saying he batted the ball, because this is not true. He did not bat the ball anywhere. He passed the ball to himself, a pass, he then went over there and caught it and shot. Illegal in all basketball associations, NBA, NCAA, and NFHS. You can not throw an alley-oop to yourself, unless it's at the slam-dunk contest.

Since the player went trick-a-dick, I'm gonna go trick-a-dick and tell the player, next time you make that move, please be sure and bring your suitcase because that was the nicest traveling move I've seen all year. If you want to say it's an illegal dribble, I will not argue that because the rulebook most closely matches that scenario. However, the rulebook also says a pass must be between teammates, so in the absence of another teammate to secure the ball before it hits the floor, we now have a violation of that rule or a turnover. And last, allowing a player to pass the ball to himself is too big of an advantage to the offensive player and not the intent and purpose of the rule.

Case closed.....

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Old School

What has happen here is a matter of you outsmarting yourself. You are hung up on the words, you have become too technical. There is another aspect of officiating bb you will not find in the rulebook. It's called the intent and purpose of the rule. The referee has the authority to make a ruling on points not specifically covered in the rules. It would be nice to be able to take every given situation that can happen in a game and relate it to wording in the book. However, that is not reality. For those that needs to be able to see this wording, looking for the next closes thing in the book doesn't make your point right, which may not be anywhere close to what actually happened. You then try to use this wording to confuse the issue. I think we all need to take a step back and think a minute about the intent and purpose of the rule. This is where you will find your answer.

And that answer is, you can not past the ball to yourself. I hear someone say a pass must be between teammates. Well this clever player, outsmarted you. He passed the ball to an invisable teammate, then went and recovered it himself, which was his intention all along. Quit saying he batted the ball, because this is not true. He did not bat the ball anywhere. He passed the ball to himself, a pass, he then went over there and caught it and shot. Illegal in all basketball associations, NBA, NCAA, and NFHS. You can not throw an alley-oop to yourself, unless it's at the slam-dunk contest.

Since the player went trick-a-dick, I'm gonna go trick-a-dick and tell the player, next time you make that move, please be sure and bring your suitcase because that was the nicest traveling move I've seen all year. If you want to say it's an illegal dribble, I will not argue that because the rulebook most closely matches that scenario. However, the rulebook also says a pass must be between teammates, so in the absence of another teammate to secure the ball before it hits the floor, we now have a violation of that rule or a turnover. And last, allowing a player to pass the ball to himself is too big of an advantage to the offensive player and not the intent and purpose of the rule.

Case closed.....

The point is, this IS covered in the rules.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Exactly. That's his point(and mine). There's a difference between ending a dribble and committing an illegal act during a dribble. In the original case being discussed, the player legally ended his dribble when he grabbed the ball with both hands.

Apples and kumquats.

The point was that in rule 9, the only violation was for starting another dribble after the first had ended. In 4-15-4, touching the ball a second time before it hits the floor is not one of the ways a dribble ends, BUT 4.15.4 tells us that this indeed is a violation.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The point was that in rule 9, the only violation was for starting another dribble after the first had ended. In 4-15-4, touching the ball a second time before it hits the floor is not one of the ways a dribble ends, BUT 4.15.4 tells us that this indeed is a violation.

Yup, and grabbing the ball is one of the ways that a dribble ends(as per 4-15-4), and ending a dribble is not a violation. That's what happened in the original post and that's my point.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yup, and grabbing the ball is one of the ways that a dribble ends(as per 4-15-4), and ending a dribble is not a violation. That's what happened in the original post and that's my point.

And my point is after the ball was batted up in the air, it was touched before it hit the ground. Is that still "ending the dribble", even though it is not listed in 4-15-4? Or, does the wording of 4-15-2 imply a violation? I thought it was a violation.

I'm going back to chew on my big mac now.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

And my point is after the ball was batted up in the air, it was touched before it hit the ground. Is that still "ending the dribble", even though it is not listed in 4-15-4? Or, does the wording of 4-15-2 imply a violation? I thought it was a violation.

How is it a violation to end the dribble?

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

And my point is after the ball was batted up in the air, it was touched before it hit the ground. Is that still "ending the dribble", even though it is not listed in 4-15-4? Or, does the wording of 4-15-2 imply a violation? I thought it was a violation.

I'm going back to chew on my big mac now.

I think he's ending the dribble (in the OP) because he brings the ball to rest in his hands (4-15-4 a.) and possibly touches the ball with both hands (4-15-4 c.)