In case you haven't hear...Joey Crawford
 

is done for the rest of regular season and playoffs, according to Dan Patrick Show.Said Crawford made the Tim Duncan thing personal. David Stern is coming up on the show.

joey
 

I just drove home going a 100 so I can read what people were going to say about this...he DESERVED IT!!!

Sigh...once again I will try to explain this slowly for our little jinxed buddy. None of us defended any call made by J. Crawford...we simply dumped on you little fanboys coming onto an officials website and b*tching about an official - not his calls, but b*tching about him personally...as I said before (if you bothered to actually read it) all officials make mistakes. Obviously Crawford made some and is going to pay - I never defended that...but I will tell you and other fanboys that you are wrong when you question that officials integrity or make blanket statements such as "he's horrible" or (like others did) make comments that Crawford was only calling things to make some team owner happy...discuss the calls all you want, but leave the personal attacks out of it...

Ya know, as much as we hate the fanboys that come running in here everytime their team gets screwed, I think that in this situation we have to admit that our boy Joey really jacked something up. I mean, for the league to suspend him for the entire playoffs, after admitting he's one of the top rated officials in the league, he apparently really jacked something up. I'm guessing that the assertion by Duncan that Joey challenged him to a fight was probably supported by some recording that picked it up, probably from some courtside mic or something, and that's why they felt such a long suspension was warranted.

So, let the fanboys have their fun on this one.

True....but a waste of time, DJ. Fanboys never get it. That's why they're fanboys.

Just another reason to not watch the NBA anymore anyway imo.

Isn't this kind of like a professional wrestling official getting dumped because he didn't see someone get hit with a chair? I think it might just be a ploy to get people to stop talking about teams dumping games to have a shot at Durant and Oden. :D It's the NBA. They do whatever puts fans in the seats.

Yup, a simple, "I was joking" would have done wonders on this one. Of course, you could always just dig your heels in and prove the natives right. You made the call.

same can be said of fanboys....

They are so cute when they beg for attention.

Stupid monkeys.

I agree...he screwed up and is facing the consequences of that. Does that make him a "horrible official"?? Did he screw up just to "make Cuban happy"??? Is he a terrible person?? Nope to all of those...so let's discuss his mistake and how we can all learn from it, but attacking him as a person? Nope...

Even Stern admitted that both "he has a history" and "he's consistently one of the top rated officials."

what I am
 

No I'm not a fanboy & I'm not up everyone's *** who wears stripes either. I am however one of the best young officials I know(just ask me I'll tell you) don't believe me e-mail me & i'll send you my schedule for this year. Come out & watch someone who wants to get it right, not get in the way & LOVES OFFICIATING GAMES!!!

Career over?
 

Just saw on ESPN's Outside the Lines. Stern intimated that Crawford may have officiated his last game of his career. That's just ashame. :(

Hell, they come on here hollering and whining like it was us who made the mistake and they fail to realize none of us on here are NBA officials. Heck, less than 5% of us actually could give a care about NBA. Joey made a mistake we all agree. He is human, humans make mistakes. Gosh noone comes on here hollering at the coaches when you are the cause for your team losing and probably because this is a basketball OFFICIALS forum, not a coaches nor a fans! :D

I'M NOT A FANBOY! I'M AN OFFICIAL TOO ! Joey was wrong this time. We all make mistakes. Duncan whines, but so does Nowitski, Bryant, James, etc. I'm tired of always being called a fanboy if I question an official on this forum. I don't mind when I get questioned by my fellow officials after a game. I try to learn from it.

Sigh....

Not one post ever about officiating, rules, or mechanics- in either football or basketball. Every post made to date is simply dumping on officials.

Methinks we got ourselves another 14-year old troll here, showing up just to bother the <b>real</b> officials.

Why don't you <b>post</b> your college schedule, fanboy?:rolleyes:

Or your varsity schedule for that matter.

IMO Joey's biggest mistake was his target that night. I am official an a fan of the NBA (one of the few among my peers). Tim Duncan is poster child for the NBA, an rightfully so. The NBA is mired in on an off court problems with is players and there image. I obviously don't know Mr Duncan personally, but he seems like a very likable individual who plays the game the right way, and conducts himself in a way we can all appreciate on and off the court. If this happens with the likes of a Rasheed Wallace or someone like that this is probably not as big of an issue. Maybe he's suspended for a few games, but the reaction as it were might be different. If anyone caught the interview on 60 Minutes a while back with his brother and father you would truly see the passion he has for the game. I think there is a lesson here for all of us, both on, and off the court. Hopefully cooler heads will prevail, Joey will see his error for what was, and return to the NBA. ;)

Agreed...as if another reason was really necessary in the first place.

what association are you with? i am sure we can get to the bottom of this truth/lie pretty easy.

His a joke?

Yeah, I wish I was 14 ! No college schedule, just high school. I'm a varsity official and I admit I am a "fan" of the Spurs (not a fanatic). I try to look at games objectively. Being "just" a high school official, I read much more than I post because I try to learn from officials who are better than I am. I wasn't dumping on Crawford. I don't like the fact that he was suspended for making a mistake. I make mistakes too. Apparently many of you on the forum are perfect. You are the ones I want to learn from.

Uhmmm...unless you are posting under both dave30 and CoachJinx, you need to dake a deep breath and slow down here...the only one being disparaged for being a fanboy in this thread is Jinxie-poo. The specific comments you replied to here were a direct reply to Jinxed-up...not sure why you're getting your tail all bunched up here...

Interesting ESPN article
 

Here's an interesting article by Pat Forde on ESPN.com. It also has video for the incident as well as interviews. Also, Duncan just got fined $25,000 for what he said either during or after the ejection.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/colum...pat&id=2840227

I just said I wish I was 14. He got the same replies I got before when I criticized the officials. I don't like being called a fanboy. He probably doesn't either. How do we know whether or not he is an official? Just answer his questions.

What questions???

[QUOTE]Hi Jurassic

I guess the basketball Forum has it's share of "flame wars" also.

It's a shame because the thread about Joey Crawford should have been titled something along the lines of "how is a Professional official Defined"

It's unfortunate in BIG Time sports that no matter how good of an official you are, you get noted for the ONE BAD call that you made.

We saw this in baseball as well.

Don Denkinger was an excellent baseball official as voted by the coaches and his peers, yet he will be simply be remembered for the Bad call he made in the KC / Cardinals World Series many years back. He received death threats, etc.

Another NBA official that is noted for ONE call that comes to mind is Hugh Holands. To this day the Knicks Bulls series of that era is noted as the "Hugh Hoands" call. I believe the call was on Scotty Pippen of the Bulls at the end of the game.

I do not think we can compare what we do whether you officiate football, basketball or baseball to the PRO level.

The PRO Game is about BIG TIME money - PERIOD. My gut tells me if Joey Crawford "dumped" Joe Smo who hardly sees action, it would have been a non issue, but it was Tim Duncan.

The same would be true of any Official who throws out a star player.

Hopefully after Commissioner Stern is finished with the investigation we will know the REAL truth as to what happened.

See you on the "other side"

Pete Booth

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]Yes, Pete, most of us certainly do have a fairly low tolerance when it comes to whining fanboys and pseudo officials. They'll never understand that it's never a matter of blindly backing up an official's call, right or wrong; it's more a matter of not tolerating the questioning of an official's integrity while questioning the call. I always thought that Don Denkinger was one of the best MLB arbiters going. Yup, he made a bad call, and he also had the terrible luck of making it at the worst possible time too. The same call in August in a nothing game basically gets ignored. Hell, I loved watching Richie Garcia work. He evolved from a young hothead into an umpire that really knew how to control tough situations. That didn't help Richie either. His legacy will always be that fan interference missed call in Yankee Stadium...unfortunately. Fanboys forget that officials in any sport are human and are going to blow one occasionally. The problem with some of the ones that come here is that they also want to assign <b>motives</b> to the missed call instead of just saying "Hey, he blew one". They'll never understand that no one will ever feel worse than the guy who finds out that he really did screw up a call. I sureasheck know the feeling.:)

The problem here is we really can't discuss these types of situations without the "Coach Jinx' of the world showing up.

[QUOTE=Jurassic Referee]Very well put JR. After reading this thread all day, I really didn't know where I stood, or what I could learn from what Joey Crawford did. After reading your last post it reminded me that I've been in this situation, and probably so has everyone on here that loves this "avocation" and is very passionate for this game. We've been in a very heated and emotional moment during a game, and even though we are trained not to be emotional during this time, WE ARE HUMAN. Now, I have about 1/5 of the time on the court then Joey Crawford does, and I'm not dealing with no where near the stress levels that an NBA official goes through, during the game and AFTER the game. I went to my first college camp this weekend, and I pick the ACC camp to go to. The stress that I thought I went through, constantly on the run for 32 minutes in a game, 3-4 games a day, with 25 year D-I Final Four officials and NCAA Tourney officials critiquing every call or missed call takes it's toll on a person, and this was just one weekend. With today's technology, I know for a fact that the NBA officials, and D1 college officials are so closely scrutinized to the point where they have a DVD of their game waiting for them when they get back to the locker room, and their supervisor has one the next day. When you look at a corporate america job, we get evaluated yearly, and sometimes bi-annually. I would love for one of these fanboys and/or coaches to be scrutinzed on their jobs every day, like these officials are every game. Coaches gets passes or the "5-year" plan to get their program together. Officials careers can be made or lost on a call made on any given night. I guess you just put things into perspective when you deal with some of these guys who come on here to complain, and to think some of them are "us" officials. I for one would think what the hell is JR thinking, can't he see that this referee blew it?? Thanks for the post and for helping me to reflect of what I am and where I've been in my short career in this sport.

Sorry for the long post, and it probably has a ton of grammatical errors.

This post won't be popular with the old guys.
 

What's the aveage length of an NBA career for the top players? It is my belief that the officials shouldn't be around much longer than that. Joey has other issues with his personality which have landed him in trouble in the past as well as this time, but I also have to believe that his being in the league for 29 years, which is more than enough, is part of the problem. It seems that when people do something for so many years they lose perspective and get too high on themselves.

It is time for Joey and Bavetta to go.

The NBA should consider putting in a cap of 15 or 20 years for officials.

Why? Joey? First name basis? Why? Good point. Nothing more corrosive than experience and wisdom. Why? Why?

Tough to understand why some folks on this forum can't differentiate between a fan with an uninformed opinion and an official with an informed opinion. Crawford no doubt deserved what he got, but I've also watched Duncan enough to not appreciate his antics. Dumping on officials who saw the game and faulted Crawford, with or without the suspension, is just stupid, though.

Visit the thread that was locked and see how critical opinions from officials, before the suspension was issued, were responded to.

Dan_ref must be an old guy. :)

Someday you will be too. And if you "still have game" and you still love to ref, you might be singing a different tune.

There are several "older refs" in our HS association as well as the junior college games that I ref who are fantastic officials. They need to stay, not go! Experience is a huge asset.

Joey Crawford's 29 years are a credit to him. He made a mistake but to say that his experience is part of the problem is..... ignorant at best.

I have no idea what who said to whom, but if Tim D was fined 25 grand, how is a double T a bad call?

Joey Crawford is 55 years old. He's still in good shape and doesn't have any more problems keeping up than do younger officials.

Imo, Joey's problem is that he's an official that likes to call a game according to the rules and also doesn't believe in treating the stars any different than the scrubbies. In a league that is solely geared for entertainment and is star based, that just doesn't fly. He's probably not a good fit anymore.

You know at that level that every team has a "book" on every single official. The players and coaches should know what he's like, and if they're smart, they should try to adjust to him rather than vice-versa. Well, unfortunately there's too many knuckleheads in that league that worry more about getting dissed than actually winning. Officiating in the NBA is a hopeless job anymore imo. That's one of the reasons that the league has become basically unwatchable, and their all-star teams are getting the snot beat out of them by the likes of Puerto Rica, Spain and Italy.

After your remarks about the Rutgers' womans team, you're known here as something else. And that "something else" is a heckuva lot worse than a being a fanboy or jock sniffer.

[QUOTE=JoeTheRef]Joe, you just replied from an official's perspective. You <b>are</b> a ref!:) You <b>know</b> that we're all going to make mistakes. You also <b>know</b> that if you want to develop into the best official that you can be, you need to learn from those mistakes. The better officials simply make fewer mistakes than others, and also tend not to repeat their mistakes. Fanboys, and some officials unfortunately, never look at things from that perspective. All they see is a missed or blown call, and it becomes a conspiracy against their favorite team.

Good luck in your officiating career.

Officiating resume, fanboy?:D

joey
 

had to help my wife(I'm not 14)so let me finsih what I was talking about. joey did not make a mistake he went after someone. He made it personal & attacked TD for whatever dumb reason. Since I'm a young guy they try & tell me how to be negative towards people or not correct an mistake they make. Happened this weekend while I was doing a college football scrimmage. Older guy telling me it was DPI & I told in no way in hell it was. During the film review observer gave me a THAT A BOY on a GREAT NO CALL!!!(SEE I REALLY AM AN OFFICIAL)

Whatever.

Thanks for avoiding my questions, reveals a lot about you that has nothing to do with your age, but everything to do with who you are.

You go back and read it and you will see that I am one of the "responders" - but I don't remember anyone wanting to really discuss the call or no-call, just wanting to dump on Joey Crawford - he kicked out the best player and that made the game horrible, he only called those T's to make Cuban happy, yada, yada, yada...once again, discuss calls and situations all we want to, but when you dump on another official like those earlier posts did then you'd better be ready to take it too...

Whointhehell are you trying to kid, fanboy .You've never officiated a game in any sport in your life. Any post that you've made since you came here was made solely to dump on officials.

You're just another troll wandering through the door to see how much crap he can stir up....:rolleyes:

Your thoughts on the Rutgers womens teams were deleted, as well they should have been. Crawl back under your rock. Your kind isn't needed here.

Or <b>what</b>......:)

Jinxie Boy...this post is what really gives you away. Any legit official is here to learn...to get feedback from eachother...to push themselves with rules knowledge. Your posts just try to prop yourself up, prove that you're better than "old guys" and tear down real officials. You may have a varsity schedule (a scary thought), but that is a bigger travesty than the Crawford/Duncan situation...then that makes you a fanboy with a whistle, which would be a disservice to players and officials alike.

Legit
 

I post on here to give crap to officials who always want to talk about how bad fans are, teams are & coaches are. I am not only a high school official, & A VERY, VERY, VERY GOOD ONE but I also a guy who does a lot of things in my association to help mentor younger guys & help train & retain guys. I pop off on here because I don't like a lot of older officials or guys who always want to put other people down. If a guy makes a mistake he should be accountable. What joey did was not a mistake it was bad wreckless judgement [In my opinion only].

If you are that good, not sure we can verify that here. Also if you are so good, I am sure giving out your real name and real identity would not be a problem. So that people here can identify how good you are.

Also everyone here is not "older." There are officials here that are relatively young (some would say I fit in that category).

Also the reality is that Duncan was fined around $30,000 for the incident. So it is clear that he was not blameless in this situation. I tend to hold back judgment on this because I was not there and I did not see the entire situation. It is very difficult to know what happen even based on what the NBA says. I am sure at some point Crawford will talk publicly about this situation and we will here his side of the story. Just because the NBA feels that he was wrong does not mean that is a reality. I have been in situations of he said, he said while officiating and often times the stories are very cloudy when positions are expressed. Also this incident alone was not what got Crawford suspended. There was a prior incident base on what the David Stern said on the Dan Patrick show.

Also it is very unprofessional if you are an official to go on and on in this way about a fellow official. For one you do not know the circumstances other than what you heard on the media and you just happen to be someone about the fact that Crawford might be in trouble. It must be pointed out that this is a common claim of fan boys when they come here and almost nothing ever happens to the officials in question. But then again if you are so good you should know this already. ;)

Peace

Your repetitive why, why, why questions were childish and not worthy of a response.

Go play your two year-old games with someone else.

When I reach 50, I'm giving it up. I'm not going to be one of those old-timers that I see out there just holding on.

I would like to see the NCAA and the NBA follow the lead of FIFA and put in an age cap. FIFA's is 45. Doesn't matter who you are, after that age is attained, you must hang 'em up.

Just because you want to give it up at 50 doesn't mean others should have to. I ref with some guys in their 50's that keep themselves in fabulous shape and can run circles around the younger guys. They are far from "just holding on." They are excelling in all aspects of the game.

I saw some fantastic NCAA officials over the age of 50 this season. I saw some young, new faces that were obviously struggling. I also see some "younger officials" who do not stay in shape year-round and they struggle with injuries frequently.

There is no substitute for experience.

Age shouldn't be the issue. It should be all about performance.

I'd like to see some evidence that Crawford and Bavetta "underperform" enough that they should "go" as you stated. Both were in the NBA finals last year, no?

If Crawford had chucked Beno Udrih instead of Tim Duncan, nobody would have cared.

Did he get into it too much with Duncan - maybe, probably, I'm not sure. But it sure looks like Stern was looking for a reason to pull the plug on him.

You should see a doctor about that bug up your @ss my friend.

You made some mighty controversial statements and the best you can do when asked to explain is call me a 2 year old? Nice work...intellectually dishonest and lazy, all in the same thread.

Anyway, don't bother now...time to update my ignore list. Move over old school, you've got company and he earned it.

canuckrefguy,

I assume you meant to reply to Nevadaref instead of me because it was him that said they should "go."

AAAAGH :eek:

Right you are!

Sorry, Zebra....

So, Nevada - what of it?

That is totally absurd for you to say such a silly thing about an arbitrary age. Some of the best officials in this country are over 50. Just because there are some in the officiating community that cannot get around at that age does not mean that applies to everyone. I know a man that is in his 70s and he is in better shape than most officials.

Also who cares what FIBA does?

Peace

Big, fat hairy jackaxx? :D Yup, methinks we got ourselves a 14 year-old fanboy trying to pose as a real official.....and not a very mature 14 year-old either.:rolleyes:

Did you forget that you were also claiming to be a great college football official too, as well as being a VERY, VERY VERY GOOD high school basketball official? Not to mention being a former D1 basketball star too? And I think that you also mentioned that you're a high school baseball varsity coach in your spare time, when you're not solving World Hunger.

I'm sure that your Mommy likes you too......

Well, at least this particular fanboy is good for a few laughs. :D

Why do I feel like washing my hands after reading one of your posts?

You'll have to update your "stupid monkey" list at the same time.

Just saying.......:D

I don't necessarily agree with the 50 year old thing, but wanted to point some things out.

Some of the younger officials who could be perceived to be struggling could have been calling the game as Mr. Nichols would like it to be called. Sometimes coaches are all over officials they don't know/trust - as if a coach's trust is a determining factor in how good an official is.

Gaining experience now is different from 20 years ago. Look at the thread with the list of camps and look at how much basketball is out there.

Yes, age shouldn't be the issue and performance should. However, if that was the case the whole landscape of officiating could and probably would change.

Although I think NBA officials are the best in the world, there was probably a mistake in this situation. Joey Crawford is one of the best officials in the game and I don't really believe it is all on him - Duncan did get a fine. I don't agree with suspending him for the rest of the year either. A $25,000 fine for Duncan is nothing. Stern does what is best for the league to keep making money.
There have been rumors of Bevetta taking over for Ronnie Nunn when he retires.

Now, back to the arguments. :D

What's the baseball equivalent? You may think my strike zone is terrible, but it's not changing for the rest of the game, so get used to it? (The more eloquent version would be appreciated, if anyone knows it.)

45??? Yikes!

I know guys in their 40s and 50s who are in far better shape (and can do a much better job of officiating a game) than I am (can).

When to stop should be an individual call based on each ref's physical performance.

Nevada - how old are you right now?

Coach Jinx you still didnt answer my question as to what association you are with.

As for Nevada and his age requirement -- phooey

The only thing I would like to see is some younger guys maybe given a chance a bit sooner to prove themselves but as far as age -- either you can officiate or you cannot.

Dan, how can you lump Nevada and Old School in the same category? Old school is a top D1 official who doesnt own a rulebook, Nevada owns a rulebook and he has proven that many times.

any Mr. Tyler when is your next tour gonna be coming out to SoCal and can you hook me up with tickets?

I wonder what action, if any, the union would take. They can effectively shut down the NBA playoffs if they decide to walk out.

Wow, that would be something.

On the other hand, this didn't work out too well for the baseball guys when they tried something similar.

But I've been wondering what the union will have to say about this too. I expect it'll be along the lines of "Joey mind the door on the way out".

i have never seen officials band together 100% when the times come.

there are always a good number of I am out for me -- so as far as official unions I think they are a joke.

not to mention the high number of available scabs that would welcome any opportunity to advance their career.

Unofrtunately from experience I have noticed that officials always complain about how much they make -- yet they NEVER draw the line as to how much they are worth. You can always find officials for almost any amount to work games (doesnt mean they will be good) however a lot of guys are happy just hiring warm bodies to work the games.

So Joey better watch it because that door will be heavy and it will swing hard when it hits him in the bum on his way out.

I have only seen 1 or 2 guys stand up when a situation isnt right and I have walked out on games before because site admin tried to lowball how much they were going to pay after we were told X amount. Even though the amount was minute I do not appreciate bush league tactics and if I agree to work games with certain conditions I expect those conditions to be upheld or there is no reason for me to hold my end of the bargain and work those games. However many guys will just b!tch about it and stay and complain.

If Joey quits I would say good for him -- I think this suspension is a bit much. Nick Van Excel tossed an official and got what 10 games. Stepehn jackson went Tyson on a fan and got what 10-20 games. Crawford made an error in judgement based on league mandated protocols that IMO were ad hoc and not fully thought through regarding players and their actions. Granted hes a hot head but hes still got 30 years of experiecne and is maybe top3 in the NBA. This is just a case of him being a perfect scape goat for the leauge to say that they hold their officials accountable too (and unfortunately to a much higher standard than their ACTUAL product -- the players).

Let him sit the first round -- however as a coach/player -- I would want the best officials available working as many playoff games as possible. Just keep him away from San Antonio. Not like the SPurs will be in the finals let alone their regional championship.

Here is something I would like to see addressed -- Teams packing it in for that wonderful top 3 LOTTERY pick.

You may never find out. The NBRA appealed Rodney Mott's suspension and didn't get anywhere afaik. It's kinda different when you have to appeal to Stern, the guy who gave out Crawford's suspension in the first place. What is he gonna say--"I was wrong"? Somehow I don't think so. Also according to the story on the union web site, officials can't <b>publicly</b> rebut charges against them without risking additional sanctions. Iow, Crawford is not allowed to tell his side of the story. That's probably a contractual obligation, but it seems kinda funny when one side can comment publicly but the other side can't.

http://www.probasketballrefs.com/Default.aspx?tabid=274

Yeahbut he can retire & write a book all about it, can't he?

This is true. Too bad that he's 55 years old though or he could possibly officiate at other levels. Unfortunately, that's 5 years past his expiry date according to <b>The One From Nevada Who Knows All</b>. Yup, Crawford would be way too old to do a high school game.

Maybe the union can get an audience with the emperor and get special dispensation.

Who knows, even stranger things have happened in the Land of the Third World that he rules.

Nevada...Nevada...Nevada.

Say it ain't so...say you have made a mistake in regards to this age thing and move on.

While you are contemplating this...I'll tell you a little story.

I know a guy that STARTED officiating at about age 32. He wanted to stay involved with athletics since he had a Phis. Ed Degree and wasn't Teaching/Coaching anymore. This individual went to camps...watched veterans...listened...got involved in the local association's board...worked his way up to a full H.S. Varsity schedule...went to several State Tournaments...continues to work out at least 3 to 4 times a week(all year long)...hit his 50th Birthday last June...and was even complimented by a certain individual from Nevada on a recent video that was shown.

I don't think this guy is quite ready to "hang it up" yet...as he can probably still contribute to the officiating pool, locally at least.

My suggestion to you, Nevada, is to not limit yourself age wise. You might surprise yourself...and still be able to contribute at the ripe old age of 50.

Incorrect. Joey broke the code of ethics and the punishment fit the crime. Remember, the fine is suspended indefinitely. What exactly does that mean? The Commish, very eloquently left that door open. Joey career in the NBA is not over. He's just done for this year and with that mistake he should be. And yes, we are held to a higher standard and Joey crossed that line.

I hate that line, I want the best available officials working. That's crap. That's just another way to exclude an official and if you are the coach, get the guy you like the most on your games. BS I tell you. If you are talking Joey being one of the best officials, then why did he do that? The best don't make that mistake. My point is anybody can make a mistake and anybody can referee a playoff game or championship game. I'm in the camp that Joey should not be suspended for life, and he's still one of the best officials. But don't give me this BS that he's the only official in the NBA that can work the playoff's. No, any official that's on the roster should be able to work a playoff game.

That meltdown that Joey just did, you're telling me, as an assigner, you would give him a playoff game? That be an insult to all the other officials on your staff. No, no, no. You make that mistake, you want be assigning much longer, either.

Here is a classic case for all us to learn today. This is how you get knocked off the roster. I bet you in most cases, this is how officials get replaced. Sadly, but one has to fall for another to rise. At least, Joey got no one to blame but himself.

I'm curious. Was Crawford suspended for the quick Ts on Duncan, or for the exchange afterwards?

597 for 597 by JR's count if I am correct.

Just finished an interesting book by Jeffrey Gitomer "The Little Red Book of Selling". A great quote of his in the book is this: "When you say it about yourself, it's bragging. When someone else says it about you, it's proof."

Here's an article with a different take on the suspension.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/6700790?MSNHPHMA


PS I'll respond to the age stuff later tonight when I get home.

Read that earlier. Interesting take. Not great, but interesting.

What they did was resign en masse. That was stupid. That meant the league could cherry pick who they wanted to come back and who they didn't. I realized they followed the advice of their idiot attorney, but they should have been smart enough to think things through.

I'm not saying they should walk, but if they do, they will carry more weight than the baseball umpires would. For one, MLB can get minor league guy and college guys who can do a sufficient job. The rule differences are minor and a lot of those amatuer guys work OBR ball at some level. In they'd have to get 1) the CBA officials; 2) the WNBA officials; 3) the NBADL officials first, then perhaps try to get some college guys who are not used to working NBA rules or their system -- which they value more highly than their rules.

It would be a disaster for the league if the NBA officials did this. I doubt the NBA is going to fire all of them.

I don't agree Tex. While i agree the officiating will suffer somewhat I think most of the people waiting for their big shot at the pros would do fine, mostly. Could easily fill playoff assignments with wnba and d-league people. I'm pretty sure the big time college guys wouldn't touch it though. They have too much to lose, as opposed to the up & comers who have too much to gain.

Of course when this is all resolved the scabs will have been used & thrown back.

There are enough guys already in the league to cover the playoffs.

I really don't understand why this story is getting so much traction. Why does it have to be an indictment on an official's entire career, the integrity of the league, or on the player?

Here's the reality: The official in question said the word "fight" in a league where fighting and fisticuffs have been a problem. Apparently, he didn't deny he said it, just that he meant it in a different context from how the player claims he understood it. Given the image problems of the league and violence, it turns out that was a mistake that led to a sanction.

Big freaking deal. It's a highly unique situation in a league that has a few unique customs and practices that, from where I sit, make it very different from working in any other place or situation. It was a unique momentary event in a unique context that doesn't mean anything more than what it is.

I agree on the interesting take. I do agree with Hench that Javie is one of the best, if not the best out there. IMO

Totally disagree. I agree with the baseball assessment, but don't think that there is not a group just like in baseball that can step in and work these games. In fact, some of the current NBA officials got in when there was a strike or work shortage by the NBA officials.

The 2nd part of this is I don't think all the officials are backing Joey here. I know if I was on staff, I've have a hard time getting behind that meltdown. Dealing with the players is apart of the turf. If Tim is just over there laughing, then Joey got to eat that. If Tim, in the game, grabs him, curses him out, call him all kinds of MF's, threaten him, spits in his face, that's a different story. Those guys are paid quite well to take a little bit of ripping from the players.

The reason we are talking about this to the extent that we are is because this is a milestone in officiating history. One of our big guys got taken down. I personally think that Joey had a chemical imbalance that day.

On a more serious note. The one thing I do disagree with here is the public announcement of his suspension. Why not just suspend him behind the scenes and no comment to the media afterwards. The bottom line is he's not working anymore games this year and it matters not that it is publicly stated. I guess that's the difference when you are an employee versus a independent contractor like in the NCAA. By the Commish talking about it to anyone that put a mic in his face. I now want to hear Joey side of the story. In fact, the story's not complete until we do hear Joey side and you can believe the media is not going to quit prying until they get it. I tactical mistake by the Commish. He should have low-keyed the whole thing.

Not an official, just a fan and this is only an opinion. I think the suspension is a little harsh. Suspend him for 2 or 3 games, don't let him referee Spurs playoff games, or some such. I have to wonder, if Crawford asked if Duncan wanted to fight, it was taken out of context. Where's the NBRA on this, shouldn't we hear something from Lamell McMorris?
Phil Taylor's SI article takes an interesting perspective:http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...tion=si_latest

There has to be more to this story, although I'm not sure that we will ever hear it. I don't believe that Crawford tossed Duncan just for laughing -- even though that is all that we see on camera. There had to be more that was said.

I'm pretty sure that Duncan was fined for his actions after he got tossed. It has been reported that he called Crawford a "Piece of s**t" among some other choice words. If Duncan was fined for actions before the second technical, it would be a tough sell that Crawford shouldn't have ejected him.

I have to ask - Nevadaref - how old are you? My guess is under 25. When you are young 50 seems like a LONG way away, but as you get closer (I'm 34) it doesn't seem that far off!!

Most of the NCAA officials that are in their prime are in their 40s and 50s - that is when they peak! Don Rutledge is a great example of an official who didn't even start until he was 32!

There certainly shouldn't be an arbitrary age at which you can no longer officiate, especially in the NBA. How would they get officials to sign up to leave their current careers and officiate for 15 years, only to be thrown out because they have reached the age ceiling? I'm not quite sure what sort of job you can get at 50 years old with only NBA Basketball Referee on your resume.

On balance, I have to say that it looks like Crawford's suspension is way out of line when compared to the suspensions that have been handed out to players in the past. Although, this is a good wake up call to us -- as it demonstrates once again that we are by far at the bottom of this business. The only reason that we have jobs is because they haven't figured out how to call the games themselves.

Ronnie Nunn reviewed this technical foul on this week's "Making the Call". He said that the second technical foul assessed to Duncan did not meet the any of the criteria for assessing a technical foul. He also mentioned in passing that an official with Crawford's experience should have known not to issue that technical foul. In hindsight, I'd guess this referred to the previous Spurs-Mavericks games officiated by Crawford, but that's only a guess.

I think the punishment is extreme, but it appears that Crawford had been put on a short leash by Stern and Nunn. If so, this is a difficult working condition to endure and the union should complain. "Double Secret Probation" is hard to pass through unscathed. Ask Robert Knight and Mr. Blutarsky.

And anybody that believes that all of that didn't come directly from Stern must also believe in the Tooth Fairy and The Easter Bunny.

Dance, Ronnie, dance.......

First in response to Brad, you are one year older than I am, not that that matters. To RookieDude, I'm shocked, shocked I tell you, to learn that you are 50! :eek: I would have guessed closer to 40.

Anyway my opinion about an age cap is not something that just came up, I have been considering it for a few years. My background as a soccer referee played a large part in forming it.

There are always a few people who can maintain their physical fitness, eyesight, and otherwise good health as they age. However, from my personal observations of officials in various sports on both coasts of this country, it appears that these individuals are the exceptions, not the norm. RookieDude, congrats, you seem to be one of those folks. We also have a tremendous official here who is now 60.

As I have already stated FIFA, the world governing body of soccer, has an age limit of 45 for working international contests. In the past couple of years this has forced the retirement of the man who was widely considered to be the best referee in the world--Pierluigi Collina from Italy. There was a brief discussion of rescinding the age limit or granting him an exemption. However, he stated publically that to protect the good of the game that should not be done. Of course, soccer is clearly more demanding physically of an official than basketball, but the concept carries over.

My main point of contention with the older officials is that too many of them get a free pass from a fitness standpoint and they serve to clog up the system while their presence on certain games prevent the next group of officials from gaining valuable experience.

Consider the choice for a second round playoff game between two officials of roughly equal ability. We'll call them A and B. A is 55 years old and has worked twelve years of postseason. B is 35 and has worked three years of postseason. Some would argue that going with the more experience official is appropriate. On the other hand there are others who state that it is unfair, and a catch-22 situation, to the younger official to use this criterion as how does he get more playoff experience if the older guys keep getting the nod over him based on that? If the older official is chosen, then what happens the next year when the situation with these same two officials would be 56 and 36 and the playoff experience would be 13 to 3? What carries more weight--that extra year of seniority or that extra playoff experience? At what point does an assignor make the other choice?
It is my opinion that unless the younger officials are given the opportunities to be in the pressure situations and gain that experience, then they will not improve as much or as quickly as they could and there will be a lack of people ready to step in when the older group calls it quits. In short, the older officials are actually slowing their progress.

Lastly, while an age cap would certainly eliminate a few qualified individuals from consideration, it more than makes up for it in the opportunities that it creates for up-and-coming refs and by providing a safeguard against abuse of political power and cronyism. I have personally witnessed officials put on state tournament games who are long past their prime only because of their connections with those who make the selections. This is not right. Their fitness is never subjected to tests. It is unfair to the participants and not good for the game to have these appointments made, and when they do not perform, it hurts the overall image of officiating.

Others are sure to disagree, but my opinion is in line with Collina's that it is proper to sacrifice a few for the good of the many. There is always a balance that must be found between experience and the declining effect of age on an official. I feel that age limits help find that point.

My recommendations for basketball officiating age limits would be:
NBA = 50
NCAA = 55
NFHS = 60

Ok, old guys, fire away! :)

I'll repeat my impression of you.

You're Old School with a rule book. That's just another example.

'Nuff said.:rolleyes:

Like they said post your schedule man. Even better if are so great you must tape every game, so why not post a clip of you in action. Live up to what you say. If you are that good you must be working college. From your post you only mention high school ball.

Here is some interesting data:

I can name multiple people from different local boards in more than one sport who are "older" and have told me first hand that "they are too old for these assignments," when referring to varsity level sports.

Their physical ability is what you expect of people their age. They are of ages very similar to what you've posted: 60.

So basically, some refs are loosely saying they shouldn't be getting certain assignments. What does that say? ;)

This says that not everyone is the same. But anyone with half a brain already knew that.

It says a hell of a lot more than that.

I guess I just think that an age cap is just arbitrary. The age of two individuals doesn't have as much to do with their abilities as an official as does their physical health.

Dick Bavetta is 66 years old and I wouldn't want to run eight miles with him (as he does every day) -- I probably couldn't keep up and I am in decent shape.

On the flip side, there are some officials barely in their 40s that have trouble running in a high school game.

So, to me your age is not as important as all of the other factors. And I don't think it will be that effective against political power and cronyism -- you're going to have that regardless of how old the officials are!

All the fuss - and it's basically the same "old boys network" argument.

And I suppose the "younger" officials are less political, selfish, and prone to cronyism?

Naive, to say the least. :rolleyes:

1. Pretty good argument against the point you are trying to make.

2. So what?

3. This sounds like an overgeneralization to me. An alternative would be to put emphasis on having a mixed crew, containing some blend of youth with greater experience.

4. You talked a lot in this paragraph without saying much. The key phrase here, as I see it, is "roughly equal ability." Somebody, somewhere, has to make the decision as to which one is better, and age should not enter the equation. This should work like any other area of sports, where the old guy can get bumped by even a rookie, BUT the reverse of this is also true.

5. Horsefeathers

6. Johnny Carson once said something to the effect: "Old is 15 years older than you are now." Interesting that you are slamming the doors on the first group when they reach an age close to that same margin over your own age.

Gee, I hope that you're not saying that you shouldn't establish rules for the <b>norm</b> when there is <b>no</b> norm. Why, that kind of thinking is totally......non-Nevadian. Heresy! Heresy, I tell ya!:D

Personally, I think that knowledge and experience factor in also. Good officials learn how and when to move to get into position, and also how and when to move to <b>stay</b> in position. And moving or maintaining position usually means walking or trotting imo. The only time that sheer speed is necessary is on fast breaks and quick steals going the other way. And even then, I don't care how young and quick you are, you are <b>not</b> going to beat the break or steal down court to get into perfect position. At lead, you usually end up beside, or slightly ahead of or behind the ball. And at that time, your experience lets you get into the best position possible, not the best possible position.

You just can't compartmentalize officials by age imo. Everybody is different and they have to be individually assessed that way.

I'm sure that at one time in your life, you thought that the folks in "Logan's Run" had a pretty good idea for society. Now that you're over 30, you still think the idea is good, but that the age limit should be changed.