When "talking heads" are harshly criticized on the forum, you think:

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Old School

Just an observation, how come we don't see more referee's commentating. We certainly see players become commentators, why not a hall of fame official? We are apart of the game and I for one would love to hear from an officials prospective live.

The only people who would care to hear an official announce a game are probably other officials or that officials family.

I have a serious question concerning criticizing officials' calls. Is it most people's (who are members here) belief that we shouldn't criticize a fellow official amongst ourselves on this forum? I asked that because I have seen people called some pretty low names for questioning an official's call. I know they are good, but that doesn't mean that just because they do something they are automatically right. I know everybody doesn't think they are always right, but there have been times where it seems that is the case.

Ironically, I worked with an official this weekend in Vegas who just went to the NCAA and NIT tournaments. He told the two of us it is all about getting a break. He said what he calls isn't any different from what we call. If what he says is true - which I think it is - officials at the D1 level can make mistakes just like everybody else. So what are the rules of engagement when talking about those mistakes? If someone comes on this forum and says they made a mistake is that a lot different than seeing an official make a mistake on national TV and learning from it?

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by tomegun

The only people who would care to hear an official announce a game are probably other officials or that officials family.

I have a serious question concerning criticizing officials' calls. Is it most people's (who are members here) belief that we shouldn't criticize a fellow official amongst ourselves on this forum? I asked that because I have seen people called some pretty low names for questioning an official's call. I know they are good, but that doesn't mean that just because they do something they are automatically right. I know everybody doesn't think they are always right, but there have been times where it seems that is the case.

Ironically, I worked with an official this weekend in Vegas who just went to the NCAA and NIT tournaments. He told the two of us it is all about getting a break. He said what he calls isn't any different from what we call. If what he says is true - which I think it is - officials at the D1 level can make mistakes just like everybody else. So what are the rules of engagement when talking about those mistakes? If someone comes on this forum and says they made a mistake is that a lot different than seeing an official make a mistake on national TV and learning from it?

I don't have a problem with critiquing (is that spelled correctly?) another officials call or calls - I think we all do that on a fairly regular basis in our own games with our partners (and they to us) and when watching other officials work...what I have a problem with is when someone makes blanket statements such as "That guy is horrible. He shouldn't be doing xyz level of ball", or "I can't stand xyz official - he never gets anything right." What really pisses me off is when someone who isn't at that particular level trashes others who are without any knowledge of what that league/conference has told their officials to do...asking questions about calls or wanting to discuss/argue calls is a fantastic way to learn and improve - bashing peers is nothing but a sad attempt to make oneself look better at someone else's expense - I detest that...

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

I don't have a problem with critiquing (is that spelled correctly?) another officials call or calls - I think we all do that on a fairly regular basis in our own games with our partners (and they to us) and when watching other officials work...what I have a problem with is when someone makes blanket statements such as "That guy is horrible. He shouldn't be doing xyz level of ball", or "I can't stand xyz official - he never gets anything right." What really pisses me off is when someone who isn't at that particular level trashes others who are without any knowledge of what that league/conference has told their officials to do...asking questions about calls or wanting to discuss/argue calls is a fantastic way to learn and improve - bashing peers is nothing but a sad attempt to make oneself look better at someone else's expense - I detest that...

OK. I really want to get this spelled out and I'm not trying to be anything other than genuine.
My next question would be to find out what you would consider bashing an official. All officials are not created equal regardless of what level they work. So if someone is not as good - across the board - as someone else I don't see what is wrong with pointing that out. Additionally, if someone isn't at that officials level, would you also throw out their positive opinion about an official? Again, not being a wise A$$, just asking questions.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by tomegun

OK. I really want to get this spelled out and I'm not trying to be anything other than genuine.
My next question would be to find out what you would consider bashing an official. All officials are not created equal regardless of what level they work. So if someone is not as good - across the board - as someone else I don't see what is wrong with pointing that out. Additionally, if someone isn't at that officials level, would you also throw out their positive opinion about an official? Again, not being a wise A$$, just asking questions.

Again, I see it as a difference between discussing calls and discussing the person...I don't care what level an official is at, if they want to discuss a call, I will discuss it with them...but the people who say "that guy's horrible. I hate the way he calls a game" really get no interest from me...

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by tomegun

My next question would be to find out what you would consider bashing an official. All officials are not created equal regardless of what level they work. So if someone is not as good - across the board - as someone else I don't see what is wrong with pointing that out.

There's a difference.

You're not pointing it out. You're offering "your opinion" that he "is not good." Offering an opinion does not instantly create a "fact."

We can debate all debate long whether a rule was broken or not based on what the fact (rule) states. But offering an opinion in an incredibly negative manner crosses the line IMO.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tomegun

1)All officials are not created equal regardless of what level they work. So if someone is not as good - across the board - as someone else I don't see what is wrong with pointing that out.

2) Additionally, if someone isn't at that officials level, would you also throw out their positive opinion about an official?

1) The problem is that fanboys that come here do not have the experience or knowledge to point anything out. And officials who have never done a high school varsity game in their lives making blanket statements about individual D1 officials, or maybe even all D1 officials is kinda ludicrous too imo. Again, it's not criticizing any individual call; it's about simply dumping on an official, or group of officials, for no real reason.

2) I'd never throw out a positive opinion. I sureasheck question some of the negative opinions posted here though.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tomegun

My next question would be to find out what you would consider bashing an official.

You and Steve Welmer.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You and Steve Welmer.

I thought I made it clear from my earlier posts that I was not asking any of those questions to be smart; I really wanted to know what some people thought was appropriate.
I have also said in the past that I have heard nothing but good things about Welmer as a person - which is more important at the end of the day. I have no problem with an official being able to literally make their own schedule at the D1 level - that explains how he can fit so many games in. I have also never said anything about his calls being bad calls or not having the courage to make calls. Heck, I've never said anything about how he moves on the court because I think he moves better than many other officials. IMO, he doesn't make any calls that aren't obvious from the top row and therefore should be left out of any conversations when discussing the truely elite D1 officials. Someone named Hank, and those who's opinion he trusts, agrees with my opinion. I have also said Welmer is not my least favorite official.

I don't know what you would call it, but there seems to be something wrong when someone can accept positive critism, but reject negative critism from the same source. Also, it is hypocritical to say it is wrong to "bash" an official and then talk badly about another fellow official out the other side of your mouth. If you are only drinkin the kool aid from those above you, you might miss something good from those on your level or below.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tomegun

1) I have also never said anything about his calls being bad calls or not having the courage to make calls.

2)Also, it is hypocritical to say it is wrong to "bash" an official and then talk badly about another fellow official out the other side of your mouth.

1) Oh?
http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...32#post=392632
http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...69#post=389569
http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...63#post=389563
http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...99#post=386399
Seems to me that someone posting under your name sureasheck is questioning Welmer's lack of balls.

2) I agree with that statement fully. It reminds me of you. You get all pissy if someone questions anything about Teddy V's officiating qualities, for instance, but you show absolutely no remorse at all when it comes to dumping on Welmer. I don't have a problem with anybody saying that one official is better than the other, but that doesn't mean that the "other" is a bad official and doesn't have the courage to make tough calls. Welmer wouldn't be working a full schedule in multi major conferences if the assignors for those conferences agreed with you. You can question Welmer's ability and that's certainly OK with me, but when you question his courage, you're going too far imo.

It's no different than a fanboy coming here to complain about a bad call. That usually doesn't draw that much of a reaction. But if the fanboy intimates that an official made that bad call because they were favoring one team over another, then they're questioning the integrity of that official. That will get a nasty response here, as well it should.

That's my opinion, Tom, like it or not, on what I think is appropriate. I really don't expect everybody or anybody to agree with me. It's simply my opinion.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) Oh?
http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...32#post=392632
http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...69#post=389569
http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...63#post=389563
http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...99#post=386399
Seems to me that someone posting under your name sureasheck is questioning Welmer's lack of balls.

2) I agree with that statement fully. It reminds me of you. You get all pissy if someone questions anything about Teddy V's officiating qualities, for instance, but you show absolutely no remorse at all when it comes to dumping on Welmer. I don't have a problem with anybody saying that one official is better than the other, but that doesn't mean that the "other" is a bad official and doesn't have the courage to make tough calls. Welmer wouldn't be working a full schedule in multi major conferences if the assignors for those conferences agreed with you. You can question Welmer's ability and that's certainly OK with me, but when you question his courage, you're going too far imo.

It's no different than a fanboy coming here to complain about a bad call. That usually doesn't draw that much of a reaction. But if the fanboy intimates that an official made that bad call because they were favoring one team over another, then they're questioning the integrity of that official. That will get a nasty response here, as well it should.

That's my opinion, Tom, like it or not, on what I think is appropriate. I really don't expect everybody or anybody to agree with me. It's simply my opinion.

1. Something must be wrong with my computer because those are links to posts where I said Welmer only makes obvious calls - on my screen at least. That is just my opinion - and an opinion shared by some of his fellow officials.
2. This statement makes no sense and isn't related to what I said. I'm not the one that said anything about bashing officials so I don't see how you can say I'm being hypocritical. You are making this up to be sensational without even bothering to connect the dots. Can you find a quote where I got "pissy" when someone said something about Teddy V? Teddy V's ability over the years speaks for itself. He isn't a perfect official, but he will go down as one of the great college officials of all time. Until something changes, Welmer's legacy will be 120+ games a year.

I do not think of Welmer as an official who favors one team or another. I also don't think of Welmer as a horrible official - but I sure don't see him as an elite official either.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tomegun

My next question would be to find out what you would consider bashing an official.

[jkjenning]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

I don't have a problem with critiquing (is that spelled correctly?)

onelook.com says yes!
http://onelook.com/?w=critiquing&ls=a

...my kids are too lazy to use a dictionary, and now I generally am, too!

[Old School]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

I don't have a problem with critiquing (is that spelled correctly?) another officials call or calls - I think we all do that on a fairly regular basis in our own games with our partners (and they to us) and when watching other officials work...what I have a problem with is when someone makes blanket statements such as "That guy is horrible. He shouldn't be doing xyz level of ball", or "I can't stand xyz official - he never gets anything right." What really pisses me off is when someone who isn't at that particular level trashes others who are without any knowledge of what that league/conference has told their officials to do...asking questions about calls or wanting to discuss/argue calls is a fantastic way to learn and improve - bashing peers is nothing but a sad attempt to make oneself look better at someone else's expense - I detest that...

I concur! And it is not limited to just one place. Anywhere, at anytime, it is wrong! Good discusion....

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Old School

I concur! And it is not limited to just one place. Anywhere, at anytime, it is wrong! Good discusion....

Touche, Old School...point taken.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tomegun

I have a serious question concerning criticizing officials' calls. Is it most people's (who are members here) belief that we shouldn't criticize a fellow official amongst ourselves on this forum? I asked that because I have seen people called some pretty low names for questioning an official's call. I know they are good, but that doesn't mean that just because they do something they are automatically right. I know everybody doesn't think they are always right, but there have been times where it seems that is the case.

Well, everybody has the right to criticize anyone else here. And anyone else here has the right to respond. And the moderators have the right to decide what criticisms and responses stay and what go.

And so it is written, and so it shall be.

I don't think that it's about criticizing any official's single call. We understand that there isn't an official anywhere at any level that won't blow a call every now and then. It's more about the posters that are doing nothing but questioning an official's integrity or fairness, or are simply just denigrating another official by intimating that official lacks the balls to make big calls, for instance.

Well, if they are questioning an official's integrity or simply just deriding that particular official, then fair is fair imo. They'd better be prepared to get the same back. I can think of one regular poster here, for instance, that is on a constant campaign to denigrate a fine D1 official, for some reason or other known only to himself. He's almost fanatical about it.