help out the writer

[jkjenning]

Originally Posted by dmotes

question 2:

This is a good old play that I haven't seen lately: Taking the ball in on the baseline after a made shot (but no timeout) the player making the throw in runs the baseline while an opposing player harasses him. The player with the ball out of bounds moves along the baseline, drawing the defensive player along with him to where another offensive player establishes position, in effect a pick. The harassing player does not see the pick and collides with the player. A foul is called.

1. The clock would not have started in this scenario. True?
2. Is this a non-shooting "player control foul," or would the fouled player get free throws?
3. If there were a timeout after the made shot, would the ball automatically come in at center court, thus spoiling the scenario?

You are not clear about who the foul is on, but the wording of #2 makes it sound like an illegal screen. I think you are asking about team control and implying that an illegal screen was set.

Of course, none of that would not change the answers for #1 and #2 anyway and #3 does not involve a foul, so:
1. True - the clock does not start in your scenario
2. shooting foul if in the bonus, the fouled player gets FTs
3. calling a timeout will not affect the throw-in position - throw-in remains at the baseline with running the baseline privileges

[Adam]

It's not an illegal screen he's talking about. He's talking about a foul on the defensive player for pushing through the screen. In high school, if there is a foul during a throwin, bonus free throws will always be shot if the bonus has been reached.

[jkjenning]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It's not an illegal screen he's talking about. He's talking about a foul on the defensive player for pushing through the screen. In high school, if there is a foul during a throwin, bonus free throws will always be shot if the bonus has been reached.

That was my first thought, but his use of player control implies the writer is thinking about a foul by the inbounding team - irrelevant to the answers, anyway.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jkjenning

That was my first thought, but his use of player control implies the writer is thinking about a foul by the inbounding team - irrelevant to the answers, anyway.

I agree, but think it's just someone with a limited understanding of the rules but knows there are some fouls where free throws won't be shot regardless.

[Adam]

dmote:
Your first scenario is one of much debate and discussion; it's not well covered in the rule books.
Some would say to do the whole throwin over. Others say the game is over, no basket. Some would say if the official has definite knowledge of how much time should have elapsed, give the team a throwin where the ball was caught. However, with such a short amount of time, it would be nearly impossible to say for sure how much time should have come off. There really isn't any way to determine whether this basket would have been good or not.

Can I see an official making the decision you describe? Yes, and I can see a whole bunch of officials disagreeing with it.
BTW, the NCAA may allow for a stopwatch to be used with replay on this. I'm not sure.
So, in answer to your questions:
Set 1.
1. Seems reasonable as an amount of time for this dilemma.
2. See above comments.
3. They shouldn't, but I think some would.
4. It shouldn't, but it probably would weigh in for some officials, depending on the level of ball.

Set 2.
1. InCorrect. Edit: sorry, I assumed there was a TO for some reason. The clock would continue to run here as it does not stop on a made basket in HS rules.
2. I'm assuming this foul was called on the defense for pushing through the screen. If so, you'll shoot the free throws in HS and college. If it was on the offense for an illegal screen, you would not shoot free throws in college, but you would in HS.
3. A TO would not affect the spot of the throwin.

Set 3:
1. Legal play, and an easy bucket to count.
2. If the tapper hits the ball with a fist, it would be illegal.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Set 2.
1. InCorrect. Edit: sorry, I assumed there was a TO for some reason. The clock would continue to run here as it does not stop on a made basket in HS rules.
2. I'm assuming this foul was called on the defense for pushing through the screen. If so, you'll shoot the free throws in HS and college. If it was on the offense for an illegal screen, you would not shoot free throws in HS, but you would in college.

Better go back and edit answer 2 as well -- there's no team control during a throw-in in HS, so FTs *would* be shot in HS, but *not* in college.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Better go back and edit answer 2 as well -- there's no team control during a throw-in in HS, so FTs *would* be shot in HS, but *not* in college.

$&%*(!
Done. Thanks.

[dmotes]

Very good. Thanks. Fast, authoritative, just the right degree of snarky impatience with my careless terminology. (exactly right: I confused player control foul with, well, everything. ) I'm curious about this bit on the pick, though. Is there any level of violence that, even if accidental or unintentional, is still a foul on the defender when defender meets pick? Or is the picking player "accepting" whatever befalls him? That's what I got from the post

To restate q1 #1--now that I have the official go-ahead--maybe I'll be clearer. I know the officials have thought these things out. If ball is thrown the length of the court, how long does it take to pass from the top of the key to the basket? That's why q1 isn't irrelevant, I think; I need my time left to be enough so that the clock would have expired if the top-of-the-key player touched it, but also not so short that the guy at the hoop would have long enough to catch and shoot. Are there standard timings for some of these? (and of course I know that the officials call what they see, and anything is possible, and so on.) I'm a writer, and this is fiction, so I won't tell anyone that you speculated. If you understand the question.

otherwise thanks for the help. I'd post the whole action sequence but you guys would shred it and I'd have to get a real job.

DM

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by dmotes

Very good. Thanks. Fast, authoritative, just the right degree of snarky impatience with my careless terminology. (exactly right: I confused player control foul with, well, everything. ) I'm curious about this bit on the pick, though. Is there any level of violence that, even if accidental or unintentional, is still a foul on the defender when defender meets pick? Or is the picking player "accepting" whatever befalls him? That's what I got from the post

There can be significant contact without a foul. If the screen (fanspeak=pick) is legal, then there's no foul if the defender stops upon the contact. If the defender tries to push through the screen, then it's a foul on the defender.

To restate q1 #1--now that I have the official go-ahead--maybe I'll be clearer. I know the officials have thought these things out. If ball is thrown the length of the court, how long does it take to pass from the top of the key to the basket? That's why q1 isn't irrelevant, I think; I need my time left to be enough so that the clock would have expired if the top-of-the-key player touched it, but also not so short that the guy at the hoop would have long enough to catch and shoot. Are there standard timings for some of these? (and of course I know that the officials call what they see, and anything is possible, and so on.) I'm a writer, and this is fiction, so I won't tell anyone that you speculated. If you understand the question.

Whenver there's a timing issue (of this nature) at the end of the game, the officials are hung out to dry. There's no clearcut answer, and no good answer. there have been many, umm, friendly discussions on this board on this issue.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by dmotes

I'm curious about this bit on the pick, though. Is there any level of violence that, even if accidental or unintentional, is still a foul on the defender when defender meets pick? Or is the picking player "accepting" whatever befalls him? That's what I got from the post

If you want to have a realistic foul on this play in your fiction, then have the defender hit the screen and try to push on through it. A good screen is going to result in some legal contact, sometimes severe. However, if the defense doesn't stop on contact, it's a foul.

Originally Posted by dmotes

To restate q1 #1--now that I have the official go-ahead--maybe I'll be clearer. I know the officials have thought these things out. If ball is thrown the length of the court, how long does it take to pass from the top of the key to the basket? That's why q1 isn't irrelevant, I think; I need my time left to be enough so that the clock would have expired if the top-of-the-key player touched it, but also not so short that the guy at the hoop would have long enough to catch and shoot. Are there standard timings for some of these? (and of course I know that the officials call what they see, and anything is possible, and so on.) I'm a writer, and this is fiction, so I won't tell anyone that you speculated. If you understand the question.

We've thought it out, but not the way you suggest. We think about how to handle it, and we think about how many times to flog the timer when all is said and done. However, there isn't anything set in writing on this, not from on-high anyway. There's nothing official that states x number of seconds are required for a ball to travel that far. There's no way to know, because every player is going to throw the ball at a different velocity and trajectory. Without replay and a stopwatch, it's impossible to know.

Another issue with your scenario. If the defense hears the horn and stops defending, how do you allow the shot? You're really talking about an official's worst nightmare with this play.