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Old Sat Apr 07, 2007, 01:50pm
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help out the writer

Folks:

For your speculation and consideration...please feel free to react.

I wrote myself into a corner recently...I wonder if you can consider these scenarios and comment on just how reasonable or ridiculous you find them, and perhaps make a few suggestions so the game play I describe will be as realistic as possible.

It's a high school basketball game, but I would be interested if rules varied for other levels of play.

In one scenario, a team down by two points has 1.3 seconds to play and is putting the ball in play after a made basket and a timeout.

The team with the ball throws the in-bound pass to a player in the three-point area. The player jumps for the (intentionally) high pass but lets it go between his hands without touching it--as a decoy; another player has slipped position close to the basket, catches and shoots successfully. However, the timer accidentally starts the clock at the moment the decoy player seems to touch the ball (the game is being held in the defense team's home court.) The loss of time between the apparent and actual catch means the player who catches the ball and shoots does not have enough time to release the ball so the shot is disallowed.
In my scenario I have the home fans mob the court but the visiting coach appeals to the officials who realize that he is correct. I then have them allow the final basket on the theory that the final play was successfully completed and the shot made, which sends the game into overtime.

1. would 1.3 seconds be the appropriate interval for this scenario?
2. is such an error one that officials can make a judgement call on? Can they allow a basket that is released after time has expired by simply judging that the timing was wrong? Or would they have to replay the final seconds? (I would argue that the team executed the play in the time left, and that to replay it would mean that they have been deprived of the play, as the defending team would not likely fall for it again.)
3. would officials likely consider in their decision that the basket, if allowed, would tie the game rather than win it?
4. if the home team coach, in a sportsmanlike decision, agreed with the change and accepted it, would that be the final decision?


question 2:

This is a good old play that I haven't seen lately: Taking the ball in on the baseline after a made shot (but no timeout) the player making the throw in runs the baseline while an opposing player harasses him. The player with the ball out of bounds moves along the baseline, drawing the defensive player along with him to where another offensive player establishes position, in effect a pick. The harassing player does not see the pick and collides with the player. A foul is called.

1. The clock would not have started in this scenario. True?
2. Is this a non-shooting "player control foul," or would the fouled player get free throws?
3. If there were a timeout after the made shot, would the ball automatically come in at center court, thus spoiling the scenario?

question 3

I know there are specific provisions for what player actions can be completed when very little time remains on the clock, such as .1 second and .3 seconds. Can someone give me a sense of what those generally are?

What would happen if this scenario played out in the last seconds of a game?

.1 second remains; team A is ahead by 2. Coach A loudly reminds officials that it is not possible for a player to catch and shoot in that time, and so instructs his players to stand still and only to avoid the foul. Team B throws long in-bounds pass which player B then bumps in volleyball form into the basket. I assume that the rules permit a tap within .1 seconds; I assume that they would not automatically disqualify such a play.

1. is such a situation a matter of judgement for officials, or are they bound by rules?
2. assuming that the ball goes in...are there any other aspects of this scenario that disqualify it (assuming that the writer has the ability to make it seem feasible, of course!)

Thanks for your input, and I hope this spurs some discussion.

Dave Motes
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Old Sat Apr 07, 2007, 02:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmotes
question 2:

This is a good old play that I haven't seen lately: Taking the ball in on the baseline after a made shot (but no timeout) the player making the throw in runs the baseline while an opposing player harasses him. The player with the ball out of bounds moves along the baseline, drawing the defensive player along with him to where another offensive player establishes position, in effect a pick. The harassing player does not see the pick and collides with the player. A foul is called.

1. The clock would not have started in this scenario. True?
2. Is this a non-shooting "player control foul," or would the fouled player get free throws?
3. If there were a timeout after the made shot, would the ball automatically come in at center court, thus spoiling the scenario?
You are not clear about who the foul is on, but the wording of #2 makes it sound like an illegal screen. I think you are asking about team control and implying that an illegal screen was set.

Of course, none of that would not change the answers for #1 and #2 anyway and #3 does not involve a foul, so:
1. True - the clock does not start in your scenario
2. shooting foul if in the bonus, the fouled player gets FTs
3. calling a timeout will not affect the throw-in position - throw-in remains at the baseline with running the baseline privileges
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Old Sat Apr 07, 2007, 02:44pm
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It's not an illegal screen he's talking about. He's talking about a foul on the defensive player for pushing through the screen. In high school, if there is a foul during a throwin, bonus free throws will always be shot if the bonus has been reached.
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Old Sat Apr 07, 2007, 02:46pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
It's not an illegal screen he's talking about. He's talking about a foul on the defensive player for pushing through the screen. In high school, if there is a foul during a throwin, bonus free throws will always be shot if the bonus has been reached.
That was my first thought, but his use of player control implies the writer is thinking about a foul by the inbounding team - irrelevant to the answers, anyway.
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Old Sat Apr 07, 2007, 02:47pm
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  1. Q1
    1. Irrelevant.
    2. Yes. MHO: If I know that the clock was started incorrectly, and I had definite proof that the "catch and shoot" by the non-decoy player took less than 1.3s, then I have a made basket.
    3. No. The truth is the truth. Win, tie, loss, it don't matter to us.
    4. Coaches' opinions mean nothing. The crew gets together to rule on the play as set forth by rules and cases given to them. Even if the ruling is that H wins, I would not rule that V wins just because the H coach says so.
  2. Q2
    1. False. The clock is running after a made basket (with no TO) in HS rules.
    2. If a player sets a pick, that person is accepting any contact as a result of the pick that makes the pick successful and the defender doesn't do anything untoward the opponent. I got no foul.
    3. No. There are no HS rules that advance the throw-in spot of the ball.
  3. Q3
    If there is 0.3s or less on the clock, points may only be scored by a tap. If more than 0.3s are on the clock, a player may score points by means of a "catch and shoot". In both cases, the ball must leave the player's hand before the buzzer sounds.
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Old Sat Apr 07, 2007, 02:54pm
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dmote:
Your first scenario is one of much debate and discussion; it's not well covered in the rule books.
Some would say to do the whole throwin over. Others say the game is over, no basket. Some would say if the official has definite knowledge of how much time should have elapsed, give the team a throwin where the ball was caught. However, with such a short amount of time, it would be nearly impossible to say for sure how much time should have come off. There really isn't any way to determine whether this basket would have been good or not.

Can I see an official making the decision you describe? Yes, and I can see a whole bunch of officials disagreeing with it.
BTW, the NCAA may allow for a stopwatch to be used with replay on this. I'm not sure.
So, in answer to your questions:
Set 1.
1. Seems reasonable as an amount of time for this dilemma.
2. See above comments.
3. They shouldn't, but I think some would.
4. It shouldn't, but it probably would weigh in for some officials, depending on the level of ball.

Set 2.
1. InCorrect. Edit: sorry, I assumed there was a TO for some reason. The clock would continue to run here as it does not stop on a made basket in HS rules.
2. I'm assuming this foul was called on the defense for pushing through the screen. If so, you'll shoot the free throws in HS and college. If it was on the offense for an illegal screen, you would not shoot free throws in college, but you would in HS.
3. A TO would not affect the spot of the throwin.

Set 3:
1. Legal play, and an easy bucket to count.
2. If the tapper hits the ball with a fist, it would be illegal.
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Last edited by Adam; Sat Apr 07, 2007 at 03:20pm.
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Old Sat Apr 07, 2007, 02:55pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkjenning
That was my first thought, but his use of player control implies the writer is thinking about a foul by the inbounding team - irrelevant to the answers, anyway.
I agree, but think it's just someone with a limited understanding of the rules but knows there are some fouls where free throws won't be shot regardless.
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Old Sat Apr 07, 2007, 03:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
Set 2.
1. InCorrect. Edit: sorry, I assumed there was a TO for some reason. The clock would continue to run here as it does not stop on a made basket in HS rules.
2. I'm assuming this foul was called on the defense for pushing through the screen. If so, you'll shoot the free throws in HS and college. If it was on the offense for an illegal screen, you would not shoot free throws in HS, but you would in college.
Better go back and edit answer 2 as well -- there's no team control during a throw-in in HS, so FTs *would* be shot in HS, but *not* in college.
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Old Sat Apr 07, 2007, 03:20pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins
Better go back and edit answer 2 as well -- there's no team control during a throw-in in HS, so FTs *would* be shot in HS, but *not* in college.
$&%*(!
Done. Thanks.
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Old Sat Apr 07, 2007, 05:39pm
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Very good. Thanks. Fast, authoritative, just the right degree of snarky impatience with my careless terminology. (exactly right: I confused player control foul with, well, everything. ) I'm curious about this bit on the pick, though. Is there any level of violence that, even if accidental or unintentional, is still a foul on the defender when defender meets pick? Or is the picking player "accepting" whatever befalls him? That's what I got from the post

To restate q1 #1--now that I have the official go-ahead--maybe I'll be clearer. I know the officials have thought these things out. If ball is thrown the length of the court, how long does it take to pass from the top of the key to the basket? That's why q1 isn't irrelevant, I think; I need my time left to be enough so that the clock would have expired if the top-of-the-key player touched it, but also not so short that the guy at the hoop would have long enough to catch and shoot. Are there standard timings for some of these? (and of course I know that the officials call what they see, and anything is possible, and so on.) I'm a writer, and this is fiction, so I won't tell anyone that you speculated. If you understand the question.

otherwise thanks for the help. I'd post the whole action sequence but you guys would shred it and I'd have to get a real job.

DM
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Old Sat Apr 07, 2007, 06:33pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmotes
question 2:

This is a good old play that I haven't seen lately: Taking the ball in on the baseline after a made shot (but no timeout) the player making the throw in runs the baseline while an opposing player harasses him. The player with the ball out of bounds moves along the baseline, drawing the defensive player along with him to where another offensive player establishes position, in effect a pick. The harassing player does not see the pick and collides with the player. A foul is called.

1. The clock would not have started in this scenario. True?
2. Is this a non-shooting "player control foul," or would the fouled player get free throws?
3. If there were a timeout after the made shot, would the ball automatically come in at center court, thus spoiling the scenario?
I would like to add that if the made basket before the throw-in happened to be a Free Throw, then the answer to #1 in this scenario would be True.
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Old Sat Apr 07, 2007, 07:51pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmotes
Very good. Thanks. Fast, authoritative, just the right degree of snarky impatience with my careless terminology. (exactly right: I confused player control foul with, well, everything. ) I'm curious about this bit on the pick, though. Is there any level of violence that, even if accidental or unintentional, is still a foul on the defender when defender meets pick? Or is the picking player "accepting" whatever befalls him? That's what I got from the post
There can be significant contact without a foul. If the screen (fanspeak=pick) is legal, then there's no foul if the defender stops upon the contact. If the defender tries to push through the screen, then it's a foul on the defender.

Quote:
To restate q1 #1--now that I have the official go-ahead--maybe I'll be clearer. I know the officials have thought these things out. If ball is thrown the length of the court, how long does it take to pass from the top of the key to the basket? That's why q1 isn't irrelevant, I think; I need my time left to be enough so that the clock would have expired if the top-of-the-key player touched it, but also not so short that the guy at the hoop would have long enough to catch and shoot. Are there standard timings for some of these? (and of course I know that the officials call what they see, and anything is possible, and so on.) I'm a writer, and this is fiction, so I won't tell anyone that you speculated. If you understand the question.
Whenver there's a timing issue (of this nature) at the end of the game, the officials are hung out to dry. There's no clearcut answer, and no good answer. there have been many, umm, friendly discussions on this board on this issue.
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Old Sat Apr 07, 2007, 11:54pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmotes
I'm curious about this bit on the pick, though. Is there any level of violence that, even if accidental or unintentional, is still a foul on the defender when defender meets pick? Or is the picking player "accepting" whatever befalls him? That's what I got from the post
If you want to have a realistic foul on this play in your fiction, then have the defender hit the screen and try to push on through it. A good screen is going to result in some legal contact, sometimes severe. However, if the defense doesn't stop on contact, it's a foul.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmotes
To restate q1 #1--now that I have the official go-ahead--maybe I'll be clearer. I know the officials have thought these things out. If ball is thrown the length of the court, how long does it take to pass from the top of the key to the basket? That's why q1 isn't irrelevant, I think; I need my time left to be enough so that the clock would have expired if the top-of-the-key player touched it, but also not so short that the guy at the hoop would have long enough to catch and shoot. Are there standard timings for some of these? (and of course I know that the officials call what they see, and anything is possible, and so on.) I'm a writer, and this is fiction, so I won't tell anyone that you speculated. If you understand the question.
We've thought it out, but not the way you suggest. We think about how to handle it, and we think about how many times to flog the timer when all is said and done. However, there isn't anything set in writing on this, not from on-high anyway. There's nothing official that states x number of seconds are required for a ball to travel that far. There's no way to know, because every player is going to throw the ball at a different velocity and trajectory. Without replay and a stopwatch, it's impossible to know.

Another issue with your scenario. If the defense hears the horn and stops defending, how do you allow the shot? You're really talking about an official's worst nightmare with this play.
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Old Mon Apr 09, 2007, 08:48am
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I am not comfortable with the terminology of "if the defender doesn't stop on contact". That doesn't allow for the defenders momentum. How about "if the defender continues beyond their momentum, through the screen, then a foul may occur".
(I might be being picky, but their might be an announcer reading this forum for the first time.)
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Old Mon Apr 09, 2007, 09:44am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamIAm
I am not comfortable with the terminology of "if the defender doesn't stop on contact". That doesn't allow for the defenders momentum. How about "if the defender continues beyond their momentum, through the screen, then a foul may occur".
(I might be being picky, but their might be an announcer reading this forum for the first time.)
Actually, "stopping on contact" is the criteria that the FED wants us to use to judge whether a foul should be called vs. incidental contact on blind screens. The person being screened is expected to stop on contact with the screener. If they don't stop and try to push through the screen, a foul should be called on the player being screened.

The relevant rules language used is NFHS rule 10-6-3--"A player who is screened within his/her visual field is expected to avoid contact by going around the screener. In case of screens outside the visual field, the opponent may make inadvertent contact with the screener and if the opponent is running rapidly, the contact may be severe. Such a case is to be ruled as incidental contact provided the opponent stops or attempts to stop on contact and moves around the screen, and provided the screener is not displaced if he/she has the ball."
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