help out the writer

[dmotes]

Folks:

For your speculation and consideration...please feel free to react.

I wrote myself into a corner recently...I wonder if you can consider these scenarios and comment on just how reasonable or ridiculous you find them, and perhaps make a few suggestions so the game play I describe will be as realistic as possible.

It's a high school basketball game, but I would be interested if rules varied for other levels of play.

In one scenario, a team down by two points has 1.3 seconds to play and is putting the ball in play after a made basket and a timeout.

The team with the ball throws the in-bound pass to a player in the three-point area. The player jumps for the (intentionally) high pass but lets it go between his hands without touching it--as a decoy; another player has slipped position close to the basket, catches and shoots successfully. However, the timer accidentally starts the clock at the moment the decoy player seems to touch the ball (the game is being held in the defense team's home court.) The loss of time between the apparent and actual catch means the player who catches the ball and shoots does not have enough time to release the ball so the shot is disallowed.
In my scenario I have the home fans mob the court but the visiting coach appeals to the officials who realize that he is correct. I then have them allow the final basket on the theory that the final play was successfully completed and the shot made, which sends the game into overtime.

1. would 1.3 seconds be the appropriate interval for this scenario?
2. is such an error one that officials can make a judgement call on? Can they allow a basket that is released after time has expired by simply judging that the timing was wrong? Or would they have to replay the final seconds? (I would argue that the team executed the play in the time left, and that to replay it would mean that they have been deprived of the play, as the defending team would not likely fall for it again.)
3. would officials likely consider in their decision that the basket, if allowed, would tie the game rather than win it?
4. if the home team coach, in a sportsmanlike decision, agreed with the change and accepted it, would that be the final decision?


question 2:

This is a good old play that I haven't seen lately: Taking the ball in on the baseline after a made shot (but no timeout) the player making the throw in runs the baseline while an opposing player harasses him. The player with the ball out of bounds moves along the baseline, drawing the defensive player along with him to where another offensive player establishes position, in effect a pick. The harassing player does not see the pick and collides with the player. A foul is called.

1. The clock would not have started in this scenario. True?
2. Is this a non-shooting "player control foul," or would the fouled player get free throws?
3. If there were a timeout after the made shot, would the ball automatically come in at center court, thus spoiling the scenario?

question 3

I know there are specific provisions for what player actions can be completed when very little time remains on the clock, such as .1 second and .3 seconds. Can someone give me a sense of what those generally are?

What would happen if this scenario played out in the last seconds of a game?

.1 second remains; team A is ahead by 2. Coach A loudly reminds officials that it is not possible for a player to catch and shoot in that time, and so instructs his players to stand still and only to avoid the foul. Team B throws long in-bounds pass which player B then bumps in volleyball form into the basket. I assume that the rules permit a tap within .1 seconds; I assume that they would not automatically disqualify such a play.

1. is such a situation a matter of judgement for officials, or are they bound by rules?
2. assuming that the ball goes in...are there any other aspects of this scenario that disqualify it (assuming that the writer has the ability to make it seem feasible, of course!)

Thanks for your input, and I hope this spurs some discussion.

Dave Motes

[jkjenning]

Originally Posted by dmotes

question 2:

This is a good old play that I haven't seen lately: Taking the ball in on the baseline after a made shot (but no timeout) the player making the throw in runs the baseline while an opposing player harasses him. The player with the ball out of bounds moves along the baseline, drawing the defensive player along with him to where another offensive player establishes position, in effect a pick. The harassing player does not see the pick and collides with the player. A foul is called.

1. The clock would not have started in this scenario. True?
2. Is this a non-shooting "player control foul," or would the fouled player get free throws?
3. If there were a timeout after the made shot, would the ball automatically come in at center court, thus spoiling the scenario?

You are not clear about who the foul is on, but the wording of #2 makes it sound like an illegal screen. I think you are asking about team control and implying that an illegal screen was set.

Of course, none of that would not change the answers for #1 and #2 anyway and #3 does not involve a foul, so:
1. True - the clock does not start in your scenario
2. shooting foul if in the bonus, the fouled player gets FTs
3. calling a timeout will not affect the throw-in position - throw-in remains at the baseline with running the baseline privileges

[Adam]

It's not an illegal screen he's talking about. He's talking about a foul on the defensive player for pushing through the screen. In high school, if there is a foul during a throwin, bonus free throws will always be shot if the bonus has been reached.

[jkjenning]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It's not an illegal screen he's talking about. He's talking about a foul on the defensive player for pushing through the screen. In high school, if there is a foul during a throwin, bonus free throws will always be shot if the bonus has been reached.

That was my first thought, but his use of player control implies the writer is thinking about a foul by the inbounding team - irrelevant to the answers, anyway.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jkjenning

That was my first thought, but his use of player control implies the writer is thinking about a foul by the inbounding team - irrelevant to the answers, anyway.

I agree, but think it's just someone with a limited understanding of the rules but knows there are some fouls where free throws won't be shot regardless.

[Adam]

dmote:
Your first scenario is one of much debate and discussion; it's not well covered in the rule books.
Some would say to do the whole throwin over. Others say the game is over, no basket. Some would say if the official has definite knowledge of how much time should have elapsed, give the team a throwin where the ball was caught. However, with such a short amount of time, it would be nearly impossible to say for sure how much time should have come off. There really isn't any way to determine whether this basket would have been good or not.

Can I see an official making the decision you describe? Yes, and I can see a whole bunch of officials disagreeing with it.
BTW, the NCAA may allow for a stopwatch to be used with replay on this. I'm not sure.
So, in answer to your questions:
Set 1.
1. Seems reasonable as an amount of time for this dilemma.
2. See above comments.
3. They shouldn't, but I think some would.
4. It shouldn't, but it probably would weigh in for some officials, depending on the level of ball.

Set 2.
1. InCorrect. Edit: sorry, I assumed there was a TO for some reason. The clock would continue to run here as it does not stop on a made basket in HS rules.
2. I'm assuming this foul was called on the defense for pushing through the screen. If so, you'll shoot the free throws in HS and college. If it was on the offense for an illegal screen, you would not shoot free throws in college, but you would in HS.
3. A TO would not affect the spot of the throwin.

Set 3:
1. Legal play, and an easy bucket to count.
2. If the tapper hits the ball with a fist, it would be illegal.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Set 2.
1. InCorrect. Edit: sorry, I assumed there was a TO for some reason. The clock would continue to run here as it does not stop on a made basket in HS rules.
2. I'm assuming this foul was called on the defense for pushing through the screen. If so, you'll shoot the free throws in HS and college. If it was on the offense for an illegal screen, you would not shoot free throws in HS, but you would in college.

Better go back and edit answer 2 as well -- there's no team control during a throw-in in HS, so FTs *would* be shot in HS, but *not* in college.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Better go back and edit answer 2 as well -- there's no team control during a throw-in in HS, so FTs *would* be shot in HS, but *not* in college.

$&%*(!
Done. Thanks.

[JugglingReferee]

1. Q1
   
   1. Irrelevant.
   2. Yes. MHO: If I know that the clock was started incorrectly, and I had definite proof that the "catch and shoot" by the non-decoy player took less than 1.3s, then I have a made basket.
   3. No. The truth is the truth. Win, tie, loss, it don't matter to us.
   4. Coaches' opinions mean nothing. The crew gets together to rule on the play as set forth by rules and cases given to them. Even if the ruling is that H wins, I would not rule that V wins just because the H coach says so.
2. Q2
   
   1. False. The clock is running after a made basket (with no TO) in HS rules.
   2. If a player sets a pick, that person is accepting any contact as a result of the pick that makes the pick successful and the defender doesn't do anything untoward the opponent. I got no foul.
   3. No. There are no HS rules that advance the throw-in spot of the ball.
3. Q3
   If there is 0.3s or less on the clock, points may only be scored by a tap. If more than 0.3s are on the clock, a player may score points by means of a "catch and shoot". In both cases, the ball must leave the player's hand before the buzzer sounds.
   

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by dmotes

question 2:

This is a good old play that I haven't seen lately: Taking the ball in on the baseline after a made shot (but no timeout) the player making the throw in runs the baseline while an opposing player harasses him. The player with the ball out of bounds moves along the baseline, drawing the defensive player along with him to where another offensive player establishes position, in effect a pick. The harassing player does not see the pick and collides with the player. A foul is called.

1. The clock would not have started in this scenario. True?
2. Is this a non-shooting "player control foul," or would the fouled player get free throws?
3. If there were a timeout after the made shot, would the ball automatically come in at center court, thus spoiling the scenario?

I would like to add that if the made basket before the throw-in happened to be a Free Throw, then the answer to #1 in this scenario would be True.

[All_Heart]

Dave,

Great questions and it sounds like you may come up with other good questions in the future. If you want to get the maximum amount of answers and discussions on all of your scenarios then I would suggest posting each question in a seperate thread. It gets very confusing for us to sort through which answers go to which questions.

By the way, Welcome to the forum!