Offensive Intentional??

Just Curious · #1 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 04, 2001, 01:19am

A1 with the ball picks up her dribble. B1 sets up on her just short of contact. A1 tucks the ball under one arm and places her free hand firmly on B1 chest and pushes her hard enough to move B1 3 to 4 feet. It would have all the flavor of a player control foul had A1 moved to the basket, but A1 didn't.... It was a deliberate push.
Thanks!

crew · #2 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 04, 2001, 02:19am

offensive foul-easy, but would have to see the degree or intent of the action to give an honest opinion.

Jurassic Referee · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 04, 2001, 06:01am

Quote:

Originally posted by Just Curious
A1 with the ball picks up her dribble. B1 sets up on her just short of contact. A1 tucks the ball under one arm and places her free hand firmly on B1 chest and pushes her hard enough to move B1 3 to 4 feet. It would have all the flavor of a player control foul had A1 moved to the basket, but A1 didn't.... It was a deliberate push.
Thanks!

Deliberate push=intentional foul!Rule 4-19-3 includes in the definition of an intentional foul-"to neutralize an opponent's obvious advantageous position".Sounds like that's what happened here.

Richard Ogg · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 05, 2001, 07:20pm

So what's the remedy? A1 has the ball, so isn't it still a player-controlled foul? You never shoot players, but intentionals always get 2 (or 3) shots. Do you shoot free throws?

BktBallRef · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 05, 2001, 07:51pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Richard Ogg
So what's the remedy? A1 has the ball, so isn't it still a player-controlled foul? You never shoot players, but intentionals always get 2 (or 3) shots. Do you shoot free throws?

Yes, you shoot FTs. If you call this an intentional foul, then it's not a PC foul. A PC foul is a common foul but an intentional foul is not a common foul. So by definition, it can't be both. It has to be one or the other.

Jurassic Referee · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 05, 2001, 08:05pm

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Quote:

Originally posted by Richard Ogg
So what's the remedy? A1 has the ball, so isn't it still a player-controlled foul? You never shoot players, but intentionals always get 2 (or 3) shots. Do you shoot free throws?

Yes, you shoot FTs. If you call this an intentional foul, then it's not a PC foul. A PC foul is a common foul but an intentional foul is not a common foul. So by definition, it can't be both. It has to be one or the other.

Tony nailed it,Richard.If a player with the ball throws an elbow,he gets a technical foul,not a PC foul.Same concept is used.

BktBallRef · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 05, 2001, 08:40pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

If a player with the ball throws an elbow,he gets a technical foul, not a PC foul.Same concept is used.

Hmmm.....actually it would have to be an intentional or flagrant personal. A live ball contact foul can't be a technical foul.

We discussed this in depth about a month ago.

http://www.officialforum.com/showthr...?threadid=3139

JugglingReferee · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 05, 2001, 09:24pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Just Curious
A1 with the ball picks up her dribble. B1 sets up on her just short of contact. A1 tucks the ball under one arm and places her free hand firmly on B1 chest and pushes her hard enough to move B1 3 to 4 feet. It would have all the flavor of a player control foul had A1 moved to the basket, but A1 didn't.... It was a deliberate push.
Thanks!

This is an easy call. Intentional foul, just as Jurassic Referee says. (By the way Jurassic - nice name!) Award two shots to B1 and the ball at the closet spot.

..Mike

Jurassic Referee · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 05, 2001, 10:04pm

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

If a player with the ball throws an elbow,he gets a technical foul, not a PC foul.Same concept is used.

Hmmm.....actually it would have to be an intentional or flagrant personal. A live ball contact foul can't be a technical foul.

We discussed this in depth about a month ago.

http://www.officialforum.com/showthr...?threadid=3139

Actually,I was refering to a player with the ball swinging his elbow without contact.Should have explained it better.You don't have a PC-you got a T.That was what I meant by same general concept as PC vs. intentional on the original sitch-i.e.two different types of fouls by the player with the ball.Does that make any more sense?

BktBallRef · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 05, 2001, 10:15pm

Yes, you would be correct in that sitch. It would be a T for excesively swinging the elbows.

Should have known you knew better.

Bchill24 · #11 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 06, 2001, 05:47pm

A deliberate push is an intentional foul.

Richard Ogg · #12 (**permalink**) Fri Dec 07, 2001, 12:13pm

I had this situation last night! Game was girls' varisty tournament. A1 (team's BIG gal) comes down with defensive rebound next to end-line. B1, B2, and B3 immediately surround her to prevent a pass, and to start the 5-second closly-guard count (California rules). A1 swings her arms a bit and makes minor contact with B1's arm -- I no-call it as nothing. Then A1 looks at B1, loads up, and plants her elbow into her. Bang! Intentional foul!

Thanks to this board for clearing up in my mind how to handle an intentional situation on the player with the ball. We shot two and the ball went to B for the inbound under their basket.

Of course the A coach wanted anything else, like "get them off of her" or whatever. I told the coach "Nope - you have your choice: intentional or flagrant." Later in the half my partner nailed the same player for, you guessed it, throwing an elbow. This time it was only a Player. She ended the first half with 2 fouls, both for throwing elbows.

RecRef · #13 (**permalink**) Fri Dec 07, 2001, 01:21pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Richard Ogg
A1 swings her arms a bit and makes minor contact with B1's arm -- I no-call it as nothing. Then A1 looks at B1, loads up, and plants her elbow into her. Bang! Intentional foul!

Of course the A coach wanted anything else, like "get them off of her" or whatever. I told the coach "Nope - you have your choice: intentional or flagrant." Later in the half my partner nailed the same player for, you guessed it, throwing an elbow. This time it was only a Player. She ended the first half with 2 fouls, both for throwing elbows.

I must humbly disagree with your call. The use of the elbow to deliberately strike another player has no place in basketball. Other than a lag kick by a person trained in hand to hand combat or marshal arts, the elbow is the most devastating weapon on the court. Yes, a weapon because it is being used as one. An elbow in the chest can easily crack a rib. Not even talking about the face or the kidney.

When I coached, I made it clear to my players that if I ever see an elbow being thrown he was off of the team. When refereeing, it is an ejection the second I see it. When conducting training classes of young refs, I make it clear that it is not accepted. In the rec. league, the kid sits out 2 games the coach and the parents are reminded that this type of action is not tolerated. A second elbow and the kid is not allowed back.

In your game the girl did not learn from her action. An intentional foul to her is just like any other foul. It is one of 5 that she gets a game. Looks like the coach did not care either as she was still in the game to throw a second-one.