TV commentators and the great georgeton travel incident...
 

Hello all.

Just a quick intro about myself, I am a High School Boys basketball coach in California, a rules junky that is known to pull out the rulebook i keep in my pocket during games when officials are obviously not interested in doing their job and i am forced to assist them. anyways, i love this message board, its good to see officials that care about their craft and i wish that more officials in the association in my area cared as you guys do.

and on to the georgetown travel

I just happened to be helping out a coaching friend of mine a few days before the georgetown game, and the exact "travel" situation came up during one of the drills. It was my assertion that it is NOT traveling, but since 90% of the refs in our area would call it travel, that move should be used with caution. It took me the rulebook as well as a physical demonstration to convince the other coach that it is NOT traveling but i am not sure if he is convinced... anyways...

when i saw the play on TV, I was convinced it was NOT traveling, and that the TV commentators (on several networks) were wrong. It bothered me for hours, as they kept going back to these commentators saying how the game ended in controversy over an "obvious travel". What bothered me even more was that it seemed by the time the evening editions of sports center came on, someone had informed the commentators about the rule, and to save face, they started saying that it was the "shuffling and lifting" of the pivot foot prior to the move that was the travel in question, and had zoomed in angles to illustrate what they "really meant"

So im on espn.com and I see this quote from a JAY BILAS column:

"Take a Walk to the Rulebook: I was in San Jose for the West Regional, so I watched the Georgetown-Vanderbilt game in the East Regional from afar. When Jeff Green hit the game-winning shot for the Hoyas, I did not believe that he traveled. When I heard different commentators from the different networks say with a great degree of certainty that Green had walked and the officials had missed it, I disagreed.

What Green did was a legal move and is, in fact, taught by many coaches. Green did a simple step-through move that is used in up-and-under moves and in the use of a hook shot, and is legal. I went to the Rule Book, to Rule 4, Article 66, Section 4(a), which states that once a player establishes his pivot foot, the pivot foot may leave the floor as long as it is not brought back to the floor before the ball is released. Green established his right foot as his pivot foot, pivoted, and went up for the shot off his left foot. All of that was completely legal under the rules.

It may have looked like a traveling violation to some, but it was not. When such a move is called as a travel, most coaches argue to the officials that it was a missed call.

The only argument regarding the violation that has any merit, in my judgment, is the view that Green moved his right pivot foot well before he got into his move. However, that was only visible super close-up and in slow motion. It was nearly impossible to see in real time.

I have heard some say the officials couldn't call a walk in that situation because the players are supposed to decide the outcome of the game that late in the game. I disagree. If Green had walked and it was called, the players would have decided it. But Green did not walk. What he did was a legal move under the rules. Not everyone, including me, knows the rules as well as they perhaps should, but the officials generally do. I think they got it right in the Georgetown-Vanderbilt game."



just thought i should share this with you officials that care about your craft. Although this tidbit did not get as much attention as the "georgetown vanderbilt game ends in controversy, sports center coming up" headlines, it is good to see a member of the media point out the facts.

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...t=33035&page=2

Thanks, Coach. Now click on the above and check out post #47.

Hey coach. Just wondering what association your school is in?

I am in the bay area but do not want to ruffle any feathers or incriminate myself quite yet. there are some very good officials that do our games, but it seems they make up only about 10 percent.

Nice post coach. You've said it very well. Now you should copy and paste your post and send it Doug Gotlieb on ESPN who claims the guy switched his pivot foot. Doug needs help. To a lot of those yokels it just looked funny so they assumed it had to be a travel.
The other issue with the call was did his pivot (right) foot actually come off the floor. To most it looked like it did but it was pretty much due to a push by the defender. So to get technical do you call a travel, a foul on the defender, or just no-call it? It was a good no-call.

No worries. I'm in SoCal but I do know quite a few NorCal officials, mostly through collegiate ball. It is widely held that there are much fewer solid officials there than in SoCal. Not too surprising though since SoCal has an embarrasment of riches of solid officials.

It is widely held in NorCal that the SoCal officials are full of themselves. :p

At least SoCal officials have half a reason to be. :cool: NorCal...I don't know what their excuse is....maybe over-eating?

But seriously, we do have an abundance of games and instruction at every level, and I would say that an official who wants to, can get better here faster than anywhere else in the country. I know when I started, I worked 1000 games a year--weekends alone I'd do 15-20. And there are so many games you don't even have to call to get them. Once people know you wanna work, you get tons of calls. In fact, I just got a call yesterday to work for someone I hadn't talked to in a year. It truly is an amazing opportunity.

I have to ask, coach. How well does this go over with officials in your area? 'Cause I have to say if a coach pulled it in my game, it wouldn't go over so well.

I'm in this camp. If a coach pulled that out in the middle of my game to "assist" me, I'd give him some nice private reading time in the locker room.

Let's see......

The great majority of NCAA officials are terrible in <b>your</b> opinion. And the great majority of Northern California officials are also terrible in <b>your</b> opinion. But you? You're great in <b>your</b> opinion.

Well, I hate to break it to you, but in <b>my</b> opinion you might be just about the lowest, ethics-lacking, back-stabbing so-called official that has ever posted on this forum.

Unfreaking believable.......:rolleyes:

Oh great....

You come to an officials' website, talk about how you're forced to assist all your local officials that don't know how to do their jobs, and you also state that 90% of your local officials are basically terrible anyway. Cool.

Well, I don't want to ruffle any feathers either, but I think that you're just another big-talking jerk.

With any luck you'll get socalreff on all your games. If ever two people deserved each other, it's you two.

I would say that most officials would stick that rule book right up his butt if he ever pulled it out to lecture them during a game. Methinks we might have ourselves a troll here instead of a real coach anyway, from the casual way that he's crapping all over his local officials. If he is a real coach, he sureashell has got a lot to learn when it comes to dealing with officials.

Wow. Jurassic, you need a new handle. Like, T-rex. Or T-ref. Or the shredder. I love the way you roll!

Wow. I am pushing 6', 173. The other two officials I know of from my association that are on here are about 6'1", 180, and 5'9, 130.

(Although I must say that I'll probably be heading down that way for at least two camps this summer.)

Hmm...
Ouch.
Very ouch.
What side of the bay, I wonder...

Incidentally, coach, if you're in my part of the bay, I personally know of 2 other officials from the association I'm in who are on this basketball forum. Plus me makes 3. I dare say you'd be hard pressed to find too many associations with many more than that on this site on a regular basis.

Gee, ya think that maybe I should have said something like "I respectfully beg to differ" instead?:)

When someone who claims to be a coach comes on here and states that the vast majority of the officials that he gets are basically totally incompetent, and then one of our so-called officiating brothers completely and publicly agrees with him, well, imo that is going just way too far.

Thankfully, the <b>vast</b> majority of coaches and officials aren't like those two.

I know this being my first post, my introduction of myself might come off as a little brash. I understand about first impressions and I am really not here just to cause a ruckus, however it may have appeared initially.

Here is a situation where I actually pulled out a rulebook. Tell me how out of line I am.

My team is down 15 - 20 points throughout the game, we are playing horribly and are lucky to only be down this much. We start to make some shots and play a little defense, so we make a 4th quarter run and with about 1:48 or so left, we cut the lead to 5. By the way, the officials have done a pretty decent job and I am definitely not the type to be screaming at officials throughout the game. Anyways, down 5 with 1:48 left, opposing team is on the line for a 1 and 1. As we have been doing all game (and all season long), we have our 4 players along the lane and our 5th player is lined up above the freethrow line extended outside the 3pt arc, opposite his teammate who is supposed to boxout the freethrower. Before the baseline ref gives the shooter the ball, the ref along the sideline tells my player he must line up "above the top of the key". I tell my player we really need this looseball, line up where youre supposed to be. The ref then puts his arm out to move my player back and tells him to line up above the top of the key. Again, i tell my guy to line up where he is supposed to be, we need this rebound. As the baseline ref tosses the ball to the shooter, the sideline ref moves my player about 5 feet behind the top of the key and walks over to me to tell me "listen coach, you really need to know the rules before you cost your team a point if he misses". Up until this point, i have not said anything to the ref at all.

The shooter shoots the FT and as luck would have it, the rebound lands exactly where my player is supposed to be. The ball actually bounces on the floor before the opposing player picks up the ball and they score a layup.

We take the ball and drive to the hoop and get fouled. While the players are setting up to shoot the FTs, the ref again comes towards my bench and tells me "yeah, you really need to know the rules". I tell the ref "I read the rulebook cover to cover once a week". One of my players comes to the bench area to ask what defense we should go into and when we should foul. He is in front of the bench area, above the freethrow line extended but below the top of the key extended. The reft tells him he needs to move or he will cost his teammate a point, and that "your coach really needs to know the rules."

He has now told me I need to know the rule 3 times. A rule that he is wrong about, that cost my team a valuable possession at a strategic part of the game. A rule that will come into play again since we are losing and time is winding down so we will need to foul to stop the clock and hope they miss freethrows. So we foul again and the opposition is at the line for its last 1 and 1 before double bonus. Again, the same ref tells my player to move back and while doing so looks in my direction and starts laughing and shaking his head.... what would you do?

Now strategically, down by 5 with 1:40something on the clock and the ball, if we score, we do not have to foul purposely if we can score on our possession, maybe down 3 with 1:20 or so left. Instead we were down 6 with 1:03 left and have to foul. If they make 2 FTs or get another long rebound that my player should have been permitted position to retrieve, its highly improbable we can come back without any major luck.

So while the opposition is bouncing the ball, preparing to shoot his FT, I pull out my rulebook. Rule 8 Art 5 was pretty easy to find since its pretty close to the exact middle of the booklet. I read the rule to the ref: ANY PLAYER, OTHER THAN THE FREE THROWER, WHO DOES NOT OCCUPY A MARKED LANE SPACE MUST BE BEHIND THE FREE-THROW LINE EXTENDED AND BEHIND THE THREE-POINT LINE.

By the way, we end up losing that game by 8 or 9 but we did not play well enough to deserve to win the game even though the guys showed a little heart by fighting its way back.

to the officials out there: What would you recommend I do in this situation?

It's nice that you have a rulebook and are serious about studying it. The fact is that the rules knowledge which you have to accept during the game is the knowledge the officiating crew possesses. In the scenario I have quoted, you really have to accept what the game administration is saying at that time - if you wish to call a timeout and discuss it and the official puts up with that, then do that, but don't defiantly put your player back into a position he is being told to vacate - with four players lined up, you're going to lose the rebound because of failure to position the 5th player in that spot??

What level of HS ball is this? I think you're focusing on the officials and teaching your players disrespect of the game administration - instead, try teaching them to focus on playing the game within the context of whatever the officials dictate. No one is perfect and we all learn as we advance ; trotting around with a rulebook and teaching defiance to your players is not impressive. No wonder you lost the game - you kept your players too distracted from what was important on the court.

I recommend that you stick your rule book up your azz.

After the way that you have already denigrated and demeaned <b>all</b> basketball officials, that is the only answer that you </b>deserve</b> to get.

Why are you asking us anyway? You've already informed us that being such a renowned, self-acclaimed rules junky, you already know more than 90% of the officials. If you're that smart, answer your own damn questions. Look 'em up in your rule book. You sureashell don't need us.

Lah me.......:rolleyes:

Good advice, jk. He ain't gonna believe you though. Lost cause.

thanks for your feedback. I have my team line up for freethrows a certain way because we are undersized. The 2 players on the side with the opponents best rebounder are to pinch down to help each other out. On the other side, our inside guy boxes out 1 vs 1, usually giving up several inches and pounds, and the top guy goes to box out the shooter (waiting for the ball to hit the rim of course). So with this method to try to combat our lack of height, there is a "pocket" that is unoccupied. If our 5th guy is not in a good position to retrieve any loose balls, we are very susceptible to long rebounds. As a team philosophy, on defense we always rebound 5. On freethrows, we cannot afford to take any shots for granted.

We were lining up thusly the entire game and nothing was said. With so little time left, I do not have the luxury of pulling my team to the sideline and "re-teaching" them how we want to rebound on freethrows. I teach my players to know what their job is and to do it.

I was not "trotting around with a rulebook" distracting my players. My players were doing what they were supposed to be doing (well, the defensive rotations for the first 3 quarters was horrible, but thats not what we are discussing). Its kinda funny how you want to stick up for an official and throw out snide remarks. I take that as just a side-effect of the internet and do not take it to heart. I am not teaching my players "defiance". I am teaching them they need to do whatever they can within the rules to do their job. As an extreme example, what if during the state championship game, an official tells my player he is not allowed to set screens on smaller players because its "unfair and against the spirit of competition"??? Know the rules, know the game, play hard.

When you say to "focus on playing the game within the context of whatever the officials dictate", there is a trust that the official is officiating the game within the bounds of the rules. I did not speak directly to the official until he told me 3 times that "i need to know the rules". What part of officiating is that? I was focused on the "context" of the game, that is why i did not burn a Timeout to discuss the rule. We are trying to win a game. We are doing what we are permitted to do within the rules.

Again, thanks for your input

I actually said 90% of the officials in my area would call that specific play traveling.

In a separate statement, I also said that 10% of the officials in our association are very good. That would leave the remaining 90% to be average to not-so-average. That also is not a statement about officials in any other areas.

But if you feel that any critique about officials demeans and denigrates the whole profession, I am sorry you feel so defensive. I often have good discussions with officials in our association (they even seek me out before games sometimes when i am out scouting, to quiz me on obscure situations, etc). The top officials seem to also agree that the overall quality of the officiating in our area has dropped as of late due to conditions that drive the better officials elsewhere. So i guess that means those officials are demeaing and denigrating officials also.

when exactly was this official supposed to learn this rule? If and when he ever does a game again with an evaluator, AND the exact same situation, AND the evaluator is close enough to the action to hear what the ref is saying erroneously to the player, after THAT game?

Coach,
If I had been in your shoes, I would have told my player to position himself just above the top of the key and outside the 3 pt line as the official working that game was demanding. Of course, he was mistaken, but there are many little things like this that quite a few officials get incorrect. For example, many officials believe that during the FTs for a technical foul the other players must retreat to halfcourt.

This was a small thing and I'm sure that this official was enforcing this positioning on both teams, so there was no advantage to either side.

Following the game, I would have contacted the local assignor or referee association and informed them of this referee's mistaken understanding of the FT rule, and asked for them to address it with him. That would have likely fixed the problem.

I just feel that it is too small of a thing to make a fuss over during a game.

You're one of those conditions. And if your <b>top</b> officials are saying things like that to you, then they are about as integrity-free as socalref.

You aren't the most believable source in the world, for sure.

I love the way JR rolls too! I don't like it when coaches or others come to this forum to trash officials.

Recognize that you aren't likely to win this argument during the game. Then try something like, "Isn't the rule that the player must be above the FT line and beyond the arc?" If the official respnds, "No", then say, "Maybe we should both look it up after the game so we know for sure next time."

Not all officials will look it up. Some will. Over time, all will be smarter.

You could also ask the refs to clarify something after the game. During the game, as has already been said, you are stuck with the rule knowledge of those out on the court. Some refs would be willing to talk after the game, but not during. When I am out on the court, I have to be confident that my rules knowledge is 100% correct. If a coach has an issue with the interpretation of a rule, he has two choices - wait until after the game where one of us will be enlightened or pursue the issue which will likely cost him a T or worse. During the game all are stuck with my current rules knowledge.

I'll ask you a question, then answer this one.

Did it work?

Here's my recommendation. Adjust during this game, contact the assigner or someone else at the association to discuss the ruling the next day.

Can't imagine why you would want to stick around after a game to have a rules debate with a coach. I know I wouldn't.

The best action is for the coach to call the assignor.

Me neither.:D

To smugly imply that the vast majority of your local officials are so incompetent that you're <b>"forced"</b> to carry a rule book with you to <b>"assist them"</b> is simply beyond belief imo. And then to have one of our own supposed officiating brothers agree with that nonsense?:rolleyes:

There's nothing the matter with discussing a missed or blown call. That's happened to every official in the world, including every single poster on this forum, whether they want to admit it or not. You can also discuss what to do as a coach if you do happen to run into the occasional official who isn't very rules-knowledgeable. That happens also. However, when you indict complete officiating groups as being basically incompetent, and then try to justify that with a single incident involving a single official, well, you've entered the Twilight Zone imo.

I've never seen the North Cali officiating groups that he's talking about, but I really can't see them as really being measurably better or worse on the average than any other of the groups across the country. Some individual officials? Yes. Over-all? No.

End of rant.

Way out of line .... keep reading you will so how far.

Make note of what the official said and as others have said report him to the league and the assigning supervisor, they will address it.



Apparently you do need to "LEARN THE RULES"
I will cite the rules for you feel free to look them up
NFHS rules
Rule 10 Fouls and Penalties
Section 4
Art 1
a) disrespectfully addressing an official
b) trying to influence an officials decision

Sticking a rule book in the official's face to show him up and quoting a rule from that book to make the official change their mind would qualify

WHACK AND AWAY YOU GO

I do not care how wrong the official is you are not going to pull out a rule book (by rule) and not get whacked.

First, I understand your point and there is some merit in your advice. At least where I am, there is no guarantee the assignors will know a rule any better than the coach. So, do I want a coach going behind my back, complaining to an Assignor, and now the Assignor thinks I don't know the rule (when, in fact, I do know the rule and both of them are wrong)? I was just saying, if the opportunity presents itself, and it is done in the correct manner, I would prefer to settle the issue without involving the Assignor.

Where I ref, I know most of the Coaches by name and they know me. Sometimes I will see them in the sandwich shop after game, sometimes they stop by the locker room, sometimes they will be talking in the hall when the crew leaves. I want the coach to feel I am approachable in the right circumstance. I will always be respectful and approachable if the coach has the same attitude. So, if a coach wants clarification on a rule after the game, I will oblige him. I will tell him what I saw on a particular play, or my interpretation of a particualr rule. In that situation, I have no problem with the rule book being pulled out. If I was wrong, I can admit it and thank the coach for his help and learn from the experience.

Some of the coaches I know could have a good discussion, others would have difficulty getting past their pride and prejudices. For the latter, it would be best for them to call the assignor and not deal with them. I have seen some coaches (and refs) refuse to accept what is written in the rule and case book.

Did it work? We were allowed the position for the remainder of the game. We fouled several more times and got two long deflected rebounds.

I was more concerned about THIS particular game than helping the ref "learn for future reference".

IMO (and experience) if a coach wants to 'go behind your back' and call an assignor he'll do so, regardless of what you say to him. Once he calls, the assignor can:

1. tell him he's full of sh1t and shut him up

2. agree the coach is right (for whatever reason) and take it out on the official

3. decide he doesn't have the full story & dig further ....resulting in 1 or 2.

Varsity? JV? I'm just curious.
I'm glad it worked for you. Just don't be surprised when it doesn't. And don't be surprised if it backfires on you.

Any assignor worth working for would do 3 resulting in 1 and 2.

I'm partial to the #1 type of guy myself, but I get your point.

Me too.......:D

actually the best is #3 resulting in number 1 !:eek:

Wouldn't it be the #2 guy who'd tell the coach he's full of sh1t?

Then what would the #1 say??? Hey coach, go pi$$ off somewhere.:D

Where do you get the idea that I think the majority of officials are horrible? I never said that. You love to take snippets and pieces and mold them the way you want. You'd be a great sports writer.
I'd like to ask you a question: If your partner has a bad game, do you tell him great job? So if you see a game on TV or live at a higher level is it different?
Critiquing performance goes with the territory. I've heard plenty of D1 officials talk about their bad games and screw-ups. I get observed on tons of games and get told what I can do better (and not just by the fans :) ).

Where? Here's just a <b>few</b> of your posts:
http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...02#post=393702

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...97#post=393697

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...52#post=393552

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...86#post=392786

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...90#post=392490

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...82#post=392382

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...77#post=392377

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...60#post=389460

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...29#post=388029

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...31#post=299631

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...96#post=299396

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...69#post-297969

Your posts are right at the bottom of each link. Just scroll down a little and take a look. That's just from a quick glance at your posting history too. I can probably find more posts where you crapped on officials if you'd like me to. Just say the word.

I'll stand by my impression of you. You're just one sad dude when it comes to ethics and integrity imo.