Do you want another "Whatta ya got"?

[Old School]

Oh, we got another good one here. Because of distance, I will probably have to rule offensive. However, form the video, I can not tell viewing it two times if the player was not airborne before the defender is set. Another point is the offense doesn't get an advantage here, imo, because the defense is there in front of him all the way up the court. You don't reward bad decision from the players. IOW, he could have just stopped and shot a jump shot. In the other video, the defensive player was not there and at the last second, ran underneath the shooter to try and draw the charge. This one is clear and easier to call because of distance. Advantage defense.

[RushmoreRef]

Originally Posted by Old School

Oh, we got another good one here. Because of distance, I will probably have to rule offensive. However, form the video, I can not tell viewing it two times if the player was not airborne before the defender is set. Another point is the offense doesn't get an advantage here, imo, because the defense is there in front of him all the way up the court. You don't reward bad decision from the players. IOW, he could have just stopped and shot a jump shot. In the other video, the defensive player was not there and at the last second, ran underneath the shooter to try and draw the charge. This one is clear and easier to call because of distance. Advantage defense.

To me this is more of a chance that I would call "block" on this one than the previous one....Maybe because it's in a fast-break situation or because it seems to me (without the benefit of slow-mo) that the defense sticks out his chest toward the defender and the more I watch it, appear to flop early....I know either of those don't matter, but both tend to lean me toward blocks at game speed.

Don't "fly-off-the-handle" if you don't agree, because I still think it is a "charge", it just doesn't jump out at me like the first video.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by RushmoreRef

To me this is more of a chance that I would call "block" on this one than the previous one....Maybe because it's in a fast-break situation or because it seems to me (without the benefit of slow-mo) that the defense sticks out his chest toward the defender and the more I watch it, appear to flop early....I know either of those don't matter, but both tend to lean me toward blocks at game speed.

Don't "fly-off-the-handle" if you don't agree, because I still think it is a "charge", it just doesn't jump out at me like the first video.

My first thought was block as well, had to look at it a couple of times to determine if B1 actually had LGP.

[RushmoreRef]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

My first thought was block as well, had to look at it a couple of times to determine if B1 actually had LGP.

I'm relieved that I'm not the only one....I'll make another point on this play as well....I think if the L had the same poisition of the camera it would have been a more difficult call....as you can see on the film the C is coming down the court on the left so the L is looking right at the back of B1 on the play which I think made it look more like a "charge" than it does in this clip...."sometimes it's better to be lucky, than good I guess"....

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by RushmoreRef

..I think if the L had the same poisition of the camera it would have been a more difficult call....as you can see on the film the C is coming down the court on the left so the L is looking right at the back of B1 on the play which I think made it look more like a "charge" than it does in this clip...."sometimes it's better to be lucky, than good I guess"....

This is a great point, although I disagree with the "lucky" part. He's good, because he got a better angle to see the play, and get the right call. This aspect would make this a great training video clip.

[RushmoreRef]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

This is a great point, although I disagree with the "lucky" part. He's good, because he got a better angle to see the play, and get the right call. This aspect would make this a great training video clip.

I don't think he got the better angle..thru no fault of his own since it was in transition and think it would have been next to impossible to get across the lane on this play.

What I meant by the "lucky" is that he got the call correct even though he wasn't looking thru the players (which would have been the best angle, which is the angle we get from the video)...but instead was looking at the back of the defensive player...I agree that he could still see whether or not the defensive player had established LGP. My point is, from where he was at, the only thing he could have had was a charge....

Now another point....should that have been the C's call...it's in his primary or since it was transition, should the L take it like he did b/c the C is so far upcourt.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by RushmoreRef

I don't think he got the better angle..thru no fault of his own since it was in transition and think it would have been next to impossible to get across the lane on this play.

What I meant by the "lucky" is that he got the call correct even though he wasn't looking thru the players (which would have been the best angle, which is the angle we get from the video)...but instead was looking at the back of the defensive player...I agree that he could still see whether or not the defensive player had established LGP.

I disagree. I think from his angle, he could see more clearly whether defender had stopped his motion toward the endline, or whether he was still sliding in. From the camera angle that motion is almost impossible to judge, and is really more the point on a bang-bang block/charge.

I'm willing to give you the "luck" on getting that good angle, though. It's hard to tell whetehr he chose it or just had an angle-angel smiling on him.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by RushmoreRef

To me this is more of a chance that I would call "block" on this one than the previous one....Maybe because it's in a fast-break situation or because it seems to me (without the benefit of slow-mo) that the defense sticks out his chest toward the defender and the more I watch it, appear to flop early....I know either of those don't matter, but both tend to lean me toward blocks at game speed.

That's why I said this is another close one. However, the distance, though I know Mark it's not relevent to the rule, but the time and distance factor between the players is what helped me to make this call, and get the play right.

Even if the player would have been airborne, he does not get to come down where he would have landed had the defender obtained LGP. Principles of vertically says you can go up and come back down in your space, but not 3 feet past where you started your jump or shot. The same rule would apply if you had a 3-point shooter get taken out by the defense before returning to the floor.

Time and distance for my sake in getting this call right is very beneficial. Use it to your advantage if it helps. Don't believe the garbage that Mark and the others will try and tell you (kool-aid) on time and distance. You remove that, like what we have in the other tread, and now I'm more so guessing at what I thought just happened. If I'm not 100% for sure, then just like baseball, tie goes to the runner, and the runner in baseball is the offense, which means BLOCK!!!! Here, charged, 100% sure.

[BEAREF]

Originally Posted by Old School

...... If I'm not 100% for sure, then just like baseball, tie goes to the runner, and the runner in baseball is the offense, which means BLOCK!!!! Here, charged, 100% sure.

There are no ties in baseball...either the runner beats the throw or he doesn't. Obviously you don't own or haven't read a baseball rules book either.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

Don't believe the garbage that Mark and the others will try and tell you (kool-aid) on time and distance.

No, don't believe Mark and the others. Read the rule for yourself, where it specifically says "Time and distance are not a factor...." Try basing it on time and distance, and you're going to call too many blocks.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Old School

Principles of vertically says you can go up and come back down in your space, but not 3 feet past where you started your jump or shot.

Can you quote me the rule that says this?

Originally Posted by Old School

If I'm not 100% for sure, then just like baseball, tie goes to the runner, and the runner in baseball is the offense, which means BLOCK!!!!

So, you're saying the tie goes to the offense, but it's still a charge? And what rule, basketball or otherwise, do you use to back this assertion?

Quit drinking the Kool-Aid, Old School. These comments are absolutely incorrect, by rule. By using what you think is correct, then you are making it about Old School, not about the players. Remember, it's not about you, it's about the game...it's not about you, it's about the game...

[Old School]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Can you quote me the rule that says this?

In NCAA men's, once the ball leaves the shooters hand, and contact occurs at the basket, it's not an offensive foul, it's a common foul. In NFHS, it will be a CHARGE, no basket. So let's say in the video above. Let's say the shooter release the ball, but the defender still obtained LGP. Shooter momentum crashes into defender in LGP status, no basket, offensive foul or CHARGE!

So, you're saying the tie goes to the offense, but it's still a charge? And what rule, basketball or otherwise, do you use to back this assertion?

You lost me on that one. If I got a tie, in other words I'm not sure I got offense or defense, and I got a major collision like what we discuss in the other tread. I got a block, defense everytime. I'm not taking the ball from the offense unless I'm sure. You see, my mind is clear. I don't drink the kool-aid.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

In NCAA men's, once the ball leaves the shooters hand, and contact occurs at the basket, it's not an offensive foul, it's a common foul. In NFHS, it will be a CHARGE, no basket. So let's say in the video above. Let's say the shooter release the ball, but the defender still obtained LGP. Shooter momentum crashes into defender in LGP status, no basket, offensive foul or CHARGE!

When exactly does the defender obtain LGP? That's all that matters here.
Just to be clear, this is a "charge" no matter what. "Charge" simply means running through another player. The question is whether it's a player control foul.

Originally Posted by Old School

You lost me on that one. If I got a tie, in other words I'm not sure I got offense or defense, and I got a major collision like what we discuss in the other tread. I got a block, defense everytime. I'm not taking the ball from the offense unless I'm sure. You see, my mind is clear. I don't drink the kool-aid.

You mis-spelled blank. I'm just sayin'.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Old School

In NCAA men's, once the ball leaves the shooters hand, and contact occurs at the basket, it's not an offensive foul, it's a common foul. In NFHS, it will be a CHARGE, no basket. So let's say in the video above. Let's say the shooter release the ball, but the defender still obtained LGP. Shooter momentum crashes into defender in LGP status, no basket, offensive foul or CHARGE!.

So, what does that have to do with my question? Are you drinking too much Kool-Aid? The question was about the statement you made:

Originally Posted by Old School

Principles of vertically says you can go up and come back down in your space, but not 3 feet past where you started your jump or shot.

Again, the question is: what rule backs up your assertion?

Originally Posted by Old School

You lost me on that one. If I got a tie, in other words I'm not sure I got offense or defense, and I got a major collision like what we discuss in the other tread. I got a block, defense everytime. I'm not taking the ball from the offense unless I'm sure. You see, my mind is clear. I don't drink the kool-aid.

It doesn't surprise me you're lost on this one. You have been drinking too much Kool-Aid. Where does it say in the rules that anytime you're not sure, it is a foul on the defense everytime?

Remember, every time you make a statement that is not backed up by rule, you are making it about yourself, not the game. You're the one drinking the Kool-Aid. Repeat after me: it's not about me, it's about the game...it's not about what I think, it's about the game...

[M&M Guy]

Rushmore:

...sigh...it looks like I might be wrong; we could make it to 19 pages at this rate...