Do you want another "Whatta ya got"?

[RushmoreRef]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

I had trouble with the emphasis on "seeing through players" until one time in one of the NFHS refpic publications I noticed that the angle they were recommending didn't always mean being literally 90 degrees to the play. Sometimes, there was a certain amount of back, but there was still some angle to see all four hands and the ball.

I don't know if wider would be a requirement, but having some either back or front on the defender would give the necessary view to determine whether said defender got LGP.

Sure and I agree...after watching the replay and the kids reaction, I think the C might have made the call on the play.....which was contrary to my thinking before....You also hear two whistles, I don't know if it's a "double-tweeter" or two separate officials blowing their whistles...If the C did, he would have had the "look thru" to make the correct call...

[Old School]

Originally Posted by RushmoreRef

To me this is more of a chance that I would call "block" on this one than the previous one....Maybe because it's in a fast-break situation or because it seems to me (without the benefit of slow-mo) that the defense sticks out his chest toward the defender and the more I watch it, appear to flop early....I know either of those don't matter, but both tend to lean me toward blocks at game speed.

That's why I said this is another close one. However, the distance, though I know Mark it's not relevent to the rule, but the time and distance factor between the players is what helped me to make this call, and get the play right.

Even if the player would have been airborne, he does not get to come down where he would have landed had the defender obtained LGP. Principles of vertically says you can go up and come back down in your space, but not 3 feet past where you started your jump or shot. The same rule would apply if you had a 3-point shooter get taken out by the defense before returning to the floor.

Time and distance for my sake in getting this call right is very beneficial. Use it to your advantage if it helps. Don't believe the garbage that Mark and the others will try and tell you (kool-aid) on time and distance. You remove that, like what we have in the other tread, and now I'm more so guessing at what I thought just happened. If I'm not 100% for sure, then just like baseball, tie goes to the runner, and the runner in baseball is the offense, which means BLOCK!!!! Here, charged, 100% sure.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Old School:

Repeat after me:

1) There is no such thing as an offensive foul in NFHS and NCAA rules.

2) Time and distance does not apply to a defender obtaining/establishing a legal guarding position against an offensive player in control of the ball and the offensive player is not airborne at the time the defender obtains/establishes his legal guarding position.

In fact I want you to write it 500 times and have it on my desk by tomorrow morning.

MTD, Sr.

P.S. Everybody read OS's last paragraph, now he is changing his decision on why he would have called a block in the first thread.

MTD, repeat after me. There ain't no such thing as a Superman, which means there is no such thing as a super refereee. If you don't like me saying offensive foul. Then maybe you need to go back to hibernation, or whatever state you where in before I woke you up.

Peace....

[BEAREF]

Originally Posted by Old School

...... If I'm not 100% for sure, then just like baseball, tie goes to the runner, and the runner in baseball is the offense, which means BLOCK!!!! Here, charged, 100% sure.

There are no ties in baseball...either the runner beats the throw or he doesn't. Obviously you don't own or haven't read a baseball rules book either.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

Don't believe the garbage that Mark and the others will try and tell you (kool-aid) on time and distance.

No, don't believe Mark and the others. Read the rule for yourself, where it specifically says "Time and distance are not a factor...." Try basing it on time and distance, and you're going to call too many blocks.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Old School

Principles of vertically says you can go up and come back down in your space, but not 3 feet past where you started your jump or shot.

Can you quote me the rule that says this?

Originally Posted by Old School

If I'm not 100% for sure, then just like baseball, tie goes to the runner, and the runner in baseball is the offense, which means BLOCK!!!!

So, you're saying the tie goes to the offense, but it's still a charge? And what rule, basketball or otherwise, do you use to back this assertion?

Quit drinking the Kool-Aid, Old School. These comments are absolutely incorrect, by rule. By using what you think is correct, then you are making it about Old School, not about the players. Remember, it's not about you, it's about the game...it's not about you, it's about the game...

[Old School]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Can you quote me the rule that says this?

In NCAA men's, once the ball leaves the shooters hand, and contact occurs at the basket, it's not an offensive foul, it's a common foul. In NFHS, it will be a CHARGE, no basket. So let's say in the video above. Let's say the shooter release the ball, but the defender still obtained LGP. Shooter momentum crashes into defender in LGP status, no basket, offensive foul or CHARGE!

So, you're saying the tie goes to the offense, but it's still a charge? And what rule, basketball or otherwise, do you use to back this assertion?

You lost me on that one. If I got a tie, in other words I'm not sure I got offense or defense, and I got a major collision like what we discuss in the other tread. I got a block, defense everytime. I'm not taking the ball from the offense unless I'm sure. You see, my mind is clear. I don't drink the kool-aid.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

In NCAA men's, once the ball leaves the shooters hand, and contact occurs at the basket, it's not an offensive foul, it's a common foul. In NFHS, it will be a CHARGE, no basket. So let's say in the video above. Let's say the shooter release the ball, but the defender still obtained LGP. Shooter momentum crashes into defender in LGP status, no basket, offensive foul or CHARGE!

When exactly does the defender obtain LGP? That's all that matters here.
Just to be clear, this is a "charge" no matter what. "Charge" simply means running through another player. The question is whether it's a player control foul.

Originally Posted by Old School

You lost me on that one. If I got a tie, in other words I'm not sure I got offense or defense, and I got a major collision like what we discuss in the other tread. I got a block, defense everytime. I'm not taking the ball from the offense unless I'm sure. You see, my mind is clear. I don't drink the kool-aid.

You mis-spelled blank. I'm just sayin'.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Old School

In NCAA men's, once the ball leaves the shooters hand, and contact occurs at the basket, it's not an offensive foul, it's a common foul. In NFHS, it will be a CHARGE, no basket. So let's say in the video above. Let's say the shooter release the ball, but the defender still obtained LGP. Shooter momentum crashes into defender in LGP status, no basket, offensive foul or CHARGE!.

So, what does that have to do with my question? Are you drinking too much Kool-Aid? The question was about the statement you made:

Originally Posted by Old School

Principles of vertically says you can go up and come back down in your space, but not 3 feet past where you started your jump or shot.

Again, the question is: what rule backs up your assertion?

Originally Posted by Old School

You lost me on that one. If I got a tie, in other words I'm not sure I got offense or defense, and I got a major collision like what we discuss in the other tread. I got a block, defense everytime. I'm not taking the ball from the offense unless I'm sure. You see, my mind is clear. I don't drink the kool-aid.

It doesn't surprise me you're lost on this one. You have been drinking too much Kool-Aid. Where does it say in the rules that anytime you're not sure, it is a foul on the defense everytime?

Remember, every time you make a statement that is not backed up by rule, you are making it about yourself, not the game. You're the one drinking the Kool-Aid. Repeat after me: it's not about me, it's about the game...it's not about what I think, it's about the game...

[M&M Guy]

Rushmore:

...sigh...it looks like I might be wrong; we could make it to 19 pages at this rate...

[RushmoreRef]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Rushmore:

...sigh...it looks like I might be wrong; we could make it to 19 pages at this rate...

Appears we are off and running...

[RushmoreRef]

Even if the player would have been airborne, he does not get to come down where he would have landed had the defender obtained LGP. Principles of vertically says you can go up and come back down in your space, but not 3 feet past where you started your jump or shot. The same rule would apply if you had a 3-point shooter get taken out by the defense before returning to the floor.

This is not saying that you can establish position while a player is airborne, right? You are meaning that as long as you have established before going airborne it doesn't matter how much ground you cover, if you run into the person its player-control! Just for my clarification...

I don't know what I've missed these last few days, if LGP is achieved then it's a charge....if not a block...if it's close you use your judgement and SELL THE CRAP out of it...

[Old School]

Originally Posted by RushmoreRef

This is not saying that you can establish position while a player is airborne, right? Right!

You are meaning that as long as you have established before going airborne it doesn't matter how much ground you cover, if you run into the person its player-control! Just for my clarification...Correct!

I don't know what I've missed these last few days, if LGP is achieved then it's a charge....if not a block...if it's close you use your judgement and SELL THE CRAP out of it...

You got it, perfect! I will just add, view the whole play when it's really close. The more things you take into consideration, the beter your call will be, and the easier it will be to defend. Also, your calls will be more accurate. You go guessing and you put yourself at risk of being wrong. For me, the more time and space I have availalbe to me to view the whole play, the better I am at determining what exactly just happened and not reacting to what I think just happened. Somewhere it's written to see the whole play thru before making your decision.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

You got it, perfect! I will just add, view the whole play when it's really close. The more things you take into consideration, the beter your call will be, and the easier it will be to defend. Also, your calls will be more accurate. You go guessing and you put yourself at risk of being wrong. For me, the more time and space I have availalbe to me to view the whole play, the better I am at determining what exactly just happened and not reacting to what I think just happened. Somewhere it's written to see the whole play thru before making your decision.

There are only two things to take into consideration on an airborne shooter block/charge play. No, they're not time and distance.
First, see when the defense gets into position. Second, see when the offensive player left the floor. Third, know which happened first. Don't make it more complicated than that, or you'll end up complaining about the kool-aide.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by RushmoreRef

I can already hear it now......take a look guys and tell me what you think....no I was not working the game....Took place in the South Dakota State tournament....official called a "charge"....I can already hear "Old School"

PS - Notice the half circle used in NBA in black in the lane..defensive player is a step outside of it...if that makes any difference to anyone.

http://www.chamberlain.k12.sd.us/chs...ntitled-1.html

I got a player control.