More Oden Foul Talk

[dahoopref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Can we discuss his foul call at the end of regulation of the Pitt/VCU game?

If you're talking about the call where Libbey was the trail and he rung up a foul in front of (lead) Z. Steed? IMO, it was a dual coverage area and Steed did the mistake of "a clean block" mechanic. There was a change of direction by the shooter in mid-air; thus the push foul.

In anycase, I don't think it hurt Libbey by making that call. Expect to see him in San Antonio today.

[socalreff]

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

I think that the above posts are very relevant to what we've seen so far this year at the tournament. Here we have directive, reportedly from on high encouraging officials, strongly, to make safe calls. Of course, many of the calls that have been criticized so far in the tournament have been calls that can be deemed as "safe." The two main examples are the Oden intentional foul and the hanging on the rim in the Tennessee-Virginia game. In my opinion, both of those calls were incorrect, of course I am not nearly at the NCAA tournament level.

I've heard Dave Libbey speak, and one of the core things that he says is that you can call the exact same play different ways and be right both times. Libbey is referring to a play that we might want early in the game as a tempo setter, but not to call with the game on the line because it didn't have a direct impact on the play. I think this concept has been taken too far in these two cases. If we're not talking the last 30 seconds of a tight elimination game, but in the first half, in my opinion these are no brainer calls. The problem is that the penalty for the official for being wrong calling the play correctly would be much more severe than the penalty for being wrong with a "no call" or going with the lesser foul.

I think as officials we need to strive for calling the obvious at all times during the game, and I think these calls in specific have hurt our profession all the way through. As these plays become more prevalent in high profile games, the mentality matriculates down to the lower levels. In my high school playoff game, a player or coach may come in with the attitude that because the game's close, he will be granted leeway to blatantly and obviously violate the rules of the game and have the expectation that it won't be called because of the score. Where does it end? I don't think anyone can deny that the "superstar mentality" has made its way down to the top high school programs, one only needs to look at the OJ Mayo mess to see that.

I think we as officials need to understand the concept of impact of fouls and fouls on specific players and the impact of different types of fouls on our games, but we can't lose sight of the need to always call obvious plays no matter what point in the game. We need to make sure fouls are there and obvious when we call them, but we can't lose sight of calling obvious plays simply because of the way that call might impact the game. I'm not saying go out and look for ticky tack stuff to call at the end of games, but just to have plays that the guy in the nosebleeds can call. Not having these obvious plays, be it in the NBA Finals, the NCAA Tourney, the high school playoffs, a regular varsity game or even a JV game not only hurts all officials, at all levels, but it also undermines the integrity of the game.

Thanks for much more eloquently stating what I have been observing.
Here is a post directly from the conference coordinator's national conference call:

NCAA MEMORANDUM
February 9, 2007
Page No. 8
[B][I][COLOR="Blue"]4. End-of-game situations.
a. There have been many close games in the past several weeks, with many more likely to occur. There is more parity across every conference.
b. We must discuss in our pregame, situations that could occur at the end of the game and how we will handle them.
c. Near the end of a close game, when the opportunity presents itself during one of the many called timeouts, we must get together as a crew to again discuss the situation being presented to us.
d. Officials can call a perfect game for 39 minutes, but if something goes wrong in the last minute, that is what will be remembered.
e. Fouls and violations must be obvious. That does not mean, “do not blow your whistle.” We cannot pass on obvious calls, anytime, especially in the waning moments of a tight game. We are not deciding the outcome, the player that fouled or violated a rule, or the coach’s extreme behavior, is deciding the outcome. Do not penalize the offended team by not making the obvious call. That is when we are accused of game manipulation.
f. By the same token, we do not want to make a marginal call – something that we have not called all game and/or that is not obvious to the masses – determine the outcome of a close game.

_________
g. Making the distinction between obvious and marginal is not always easy, but this is our charge and comes with this important responsibility. This is what separates great officials from everyone else.
h. Remember, obvious trumps everything. It does not matter the foul count, the score or the time left in the game.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by socalreff

f. By the same token, we do not want to make a marginal call – something that we have not called all game and/or that is not obvious to the masses – determine the outcome of a close game.

I have a bit of a problem with the last part of this guideline. Something we haven't called all game - fine. Most everyone can agree that 0.2 seconds left is not the time to have your first 3-second call of the game. That said, I don't give 2 dexters whether or not "the masses" agree with my last-second call. If I have a call at the end of the game, and I'm SURE of that call, I'm making it. If grandma up in the 25th row wants to go home thinking I'm a son of a dexter - so be it!

[mick]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

I have a bit of a problem with the last part of this guideline. Something we haven't called all game - fine. Most everyone can agree that 0.2 seconds left is not the time to have your first 3-second call of the game. That said, I don't give 2 dexters whether or not "the masses" agree with my last-second call. If I have a call at the end of the game, and I'm SURE of that call, I'm making it. If grandma up in the 25th row wants to go home thinking I'm a son of a dexter - so be it!

Mark,
You're hard and cold-hearted. ...A gramma?
Where did you learn your game ?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by dahoopref

If you're talking about the call where Libbey was the trail and he rung up a foul in front of (lead) Z. Steed? IMO, it was a dual coverage area and Steed did the mistake of "a clean block" mechanic. There was a change of direction by the shooter in mid-air; thus the push foul.

In anycase, I don't think it hurt Libbey by making that call. Expect to see him in San Antonio today.

That's the one. I'm surprised that you believe that this was a dual coverage situation.

[socalreff]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

I have a bit of a problem with the last part of this guideline. Something we haven't called all game - fine. Most everyone can agree that 0.2 seconds left is not the time to have your first 3-second call of the game. That said, I don't give 2 dexters whether or not "the masses" agree with my last-second call. If I have a call at the end of the game, and I'm SURE of that call, I'm making it. If grandma up in the 25th row wants to go home thinking I'm a son of a dexter - so be it!

I agree. I would have left that part out but I didn't want to edit the boss. There are obviously plays throughout the game that are not obvious to the masses that we must call and it doesn't change from tip to final horn. If we focus on high certainty calls in our primary throughout the game, it shouldn't be a problem to do it at the end.
That's what's upsetting about watching these guys call all over the court. Who's watching their primary? I believe that is one thing that doesn't happen nearly as much in the womens tourney (that I've seen so far).

[socalreff]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

I have a bit of a problem with the last part of this guideline. Something we haven't called all game - fine. Most everyone can agree that 0.2 seconds left is not the time to have your first 3-second call of the game. That said, I don't give 2 dexters whether or not "the masses" agree with my last-second call. If I have a call at the end of the game, and I'm SURE of that call, I'm making it. If grandma up in the 25th row wants to go home thinking I'm a son of a dexter - so be it!

It's also somewhat disheartening to know that these guys are clinicians at camps. Obviously they have tons of experience and knowledge, which is great, but campers are watching these guys officiate and can pick up bad habits. (Do as I say, not as I do.)I know for me, I strive to do things (mechanics and floor coverages)by the book as much as possible, especially if I know younger officials are watching.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by socalreff

It's also somewhat disheartening to know that these guys are clinicians at camps. Obviously they have tons of experience and knowledge, which is great, but campers are watching these guys officiate and can pick up bad habits. (Do as I say, not as I do.)I know for me, I strive to do things (mechanics and floor coverages)by the book as much as possible, especially if I know younger officials are watching.

Maybe you can be a nice guy and offer to train all of the officials that are working the NCAA D1 tournament. I'm sure that they'd appreciate it no end, being able to draw on your vast store of experience and officiating knowledge.

Give 'em all a call and offer to help. They'll be thrilled.

[dahoopref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That's the one. I'm surprised that you believe that this was a dual coverage situation.

If I remember the play correctly, the shooter started in Libbey's (trail) primary area and drove into the key on the same side. The shooter took off at the arc of the circle and ended up shooting the ball in front of the Steed (lead). Their was an obvious change in direction in mid-flight by the shooter. I believe there is a little triangle area of coverage that the (L) and (T) have. That is where the foul was called.

The (L) made the mistake of doing the "clean block" mechanic. It is a mechanic that will get a referee in more trouble than help.

The call took courage but was right. And because of it, Libbey is the (R) on the Ohio St / Tenn game.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by socalreff

It's also somewhat disheartening to know that these guys are clinicians at camps. Obviously they have tons of experience and knowledge, which is great, but campers are watching these guys officiate and can pick up bad habits. (Do as I say, not as I do.)I know for me, I strive to do things (mechanics and floor coverages)by the book as much as possible, especially if I know younger officials are watching.

As much as you're crapping on these D1 officials, I hope you brought your own toilet paper.

[MJT]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

NEVER have I seen such a great picture of "beating a dead horse." Fricking halarious!!!! I will be sharing this with some guys I work with who use this saying often.

[SMEngmann]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

I have a bit of a problem with the last part of this guideline. Something we haven't called all game - fine. Most everyone can agree that 0.2 seconds left is not the time to have your first 3-second call of the game. That said, I don't give 2 dexters whether or not "the masses" agree with my last-second call. If I have a call at the end of the game, and I'm SURE of that call, I'm making it. If grandma up in the 25th row wants to go home thinking I'm a son of a dexter - so be it!

Well I agree with you, but I think there is a distinction. I think "obvious to the masses" should be replaced by "obvious to the tape." I think what the NCAA is trying to say here is that the call needs to be obvious AND have a direct impact on the play, which goes back to Libbey's point that I brought up in my first post. You can have an obvious illegal pick on the opposite side of the floor when a last second shot is going up, and that call would be incorrect because it did not impact the play, however, if there was an obvious illegal pick that freed up an open look for the shooter, that might not be obvious right away to the masses, but it is a call that we must have. It is a tough distinction, though, between calling the obvious fouls and avoiding calling marginal plays, that's why they pay these guys the big bucks. Not to change the subject, but after watching these NCAA games, it gives me a new appreciation for the guts that it took for Joe DeRosa to make the correct timeout call in Game 5 of the NBA Finals last year.