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-   -   My Old High School (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/32742-my-old-high-school.html)

Nevadaref Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:49pm
Despite the fact that we know that the wrong decision was made on the last shot, I can't find a great deal of fault with the Trail official. (The LEAD is a whole different matter!)

I can cut him some slack because in a two-person crew, the Trail must be behind the play as the ball is being brought up the court and since the offensive is pushing it up fast due to there being only a few seconds left he doesn't have time to get a good angle on the ball hitting the pole above the backboard. He would need to be more in front of the team bench to have a quality look at that. Could he have continued his run and gotten down there? Maybe, but would most people? Probably not.

Instead he is almost straight on and probably can't tell if the ball is going straight up or hit the pole and came back a bit. Plus the gym wall behind the backboard is painted white and so it the pole. This lack of contrast doesn't help the official.

jmaellis Thu Mar 15, 2007 02:24am
Anybody willing to comment as to whether or not you would call or pass on the lane violation committed on the second free throw by the player in the white jersey occupying the space directly to the left of the free throw shooter (2:52). Since the basket was made I now it doesn't matter, but I didn't see either official give the delayed lane violation signal, so I'm wondering if the encroachment into the lane was not significant enough to warrant a call.

Nevadaref Thu Mar 15, 2007 02:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TriggerMN
Why is that team shooting a double bonus when there are only 6 team fouls recorded on the board?
That is an excellent observation. The scoreboard does show six team fouls for each team at the end of the game (4:10) on the video closeup. Perhaps that scoreboard doesn't go any higher than six or perhaps they blew that too.

http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...ages/whaat.gif

Jurassic Referee Thu Mar 15, 2007 06:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
That is an excellent observation. The scoreboard does show six team fouls for each team at the end of the game (4:10) on the video closeup. Perhaps that scoreboard doesn't go any higher than six or perhaps they blew that too.
Say what?

The scoreboard isn't official. The scorebook is. It doesn't matter a lick what the scoreboard says about the number of fouls. All that counts is what is entered in the official score<b>book</b>. NFHS rule 2-11-11.

jkjenning Thu Mar 15, 2007 08:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
The scoreboard does show six team fouls for each team at the end of the game (4:10) on the video closeup.
At the start of the video "Vikings" have 11 team fouls, "Visitor" has 6.
Then around the 1:30 mark (immediately after the officials were buzzed) the scoreboard shows 6 each... I'd say the clockkeeper had issues.

Dan_ref Thu Mar 15, 2007 09:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
1. Dan, this is a gray area. I wouldn't ever ask the table if a player traveled, however, there is a casebook play which allows the referee to consult the table to determine if a try was in flight or a foul occurred before an unheard horn. (2.13)
Plus have you ever heard of an official asking the table for help on which player committed a foul when the number is forgotten by the officials?
How much you involve the table with calls on the court is very sensitive. I'd like to keep it to a minimum, but I would also like to do all that I can to get the play right for the coaches and kids. Whether the ball hit a pole or struck a wire is a factual issue to me, just as whether a try was released before or after a horn. This is not the same as a judgment call on whether or not a foul occurred.
If you deem that this is a call that an official on the court must make or it simply gets missed, then I can see the validity in that as well.

2. Would you be happier if I had instead written "to rely upon your table to do their job and handle the clock"? I think your second criticism is purely about diction.
1. OK, so you're saying this is what *you* would do but it is not backed up by the rules. I can live with that. And I'll remember it the next time you condemn an official for not doing it entirely by the book.

2. No, just my subtle way of saying you can't have it both ways.

Nevadaref Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
1. OK, so you're saying this is what *you* would do but it is not backed up by the rules. I can live with that. And I'll remember it the next time you condemn an official for not doing it entirely by the book.
I think that 2-3 would provide rules support. :D

Junker Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Despite the fact that we know that the wrong decision was made on the last shot, I can't find a great deal of fault with the Trail official. (The LEAD is a whole different matter!)

I can cut him some slack because in a two-person crew, the Trail must be behind the play as the ball is being brought up the court and since the offensive is pushing it up fast due to there being only a few seconds left he doesn't have time to get a good angle on the ball hitting the pole above the backboard. He would need to be more in front of the team bench to have a quality look at that. Could he have continued his run and gotten down there? Maybe, but would most people? Probably not.

Instead he is almost straight on and probably can't tell if the ball is going straight up or hit the pole and came back a bit. Plus the gym wall behind the backboard is painted white and so it the pole. This lack of contrast doesn't help the official.
I'm going to disagree here. The Lead should not be looking up at the shot. The shot from that area is the T's responsibility and in 2 man, the rim is always the T's responsibility.

Adam Thu Mar 15, 2007 01:09pm
Junker, I think he's faulting the lead for two things. First, for looking up. Second, for not going to get this call if he was looking up.

JRutledge Thu Mar 15, 2007 01:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Junker
I'm going to disagree here. The Lead should not be looking up at the shot. The shot from that area is the T's responsibility and in 2 man, the rim is always the T's responsibility.
That does not preclude the Lead from seeing or knowing the ball hit a support. I know I sometimes take a peek at this when the ball bounces high off the rim. Now that does not mean I would see it for sure, but I do take a peek when possible. Also I would not get on the Lead as if they should be watching this. This was a play better for 3 officials.

Peace

Nevadaref Thu Mar 15, 2007 02:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
Junker, I think he's faulting the lead for two things. First, for looking up. Second, for not going to get this call if he was looking up.
Exactly. Junker, while the Lead should NOT have been looking there, he did not leave this play to his partner as he should have. You can see him on the video looking up there from directly under the basket! Since he did that why doesn't he come help his partner out with a game determining call? They could have discussed the play before leaving the floor.

I have a great deal of criticism for the Lead. It is the Trail that I can let slide because I can understand how he missed it.


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