Still further coach technical question

[rainmaker]

Situation: 8th grade girls, close game, but white led the whole time (and won, by the way). Blue was coming back in the last 5 min of the game, and got as close as two, I think, so of course the tension was glutinous. White was unhappy that we had called a lot more fouls on them, but that's the way they were playing. Both my partner and me were calling it pretty tight, and neither of us had any questions about how the other was working. I missed a couple, he missed a couple, but we were getting it pretty right. With about 3 minutes to go, white is inbounding under blue's basket, blue is pressing. White dribbles to one side heading to get past a screen, slides a little and falls. I wasn't watching closely, but my partner was right there and had a great angle. White lost the ball, the screener fell over the ex-dribbler, blue grabs the ball and heads up court. Another white player comes down and nails blue dribbler - tweet - double bonus, two shots for blue. White coach is literally incoherent with rage, but I walk over, and briefly talk him down, let the assistant coach take over, and feel very proud of myself for not T'ing. Site supervisor reams me after the game for not tossing white coach. Blue parents thought I was playing favorites, I guess.

Okay, if I ask you folks whether I was right or not, you'll say you had to see it yourself, and so on. So I'm not asking. But for my edification and future professionalism, what tells you it's time for a T, and what do you handle in other ways? i like the philosophy of giving T's when they make a better game, but how do I know when that is?

[BktBallRef]

When you've done everything that you can to avoid the T, when the coach has ignored every opportunity that you've given him, and when you personally, have had enough, then, and only then, WHACK! him.

Sounds like you handled it fine to me.

[Mike Burns]

Originally posted by rainmaker
i like the philosophy of giving T's when they make a better game, but how do I know when that is?

As long as the coach is coaching I don't have a problem. My line is when the coach gets unsportsmanlike (esp. language) or personal (i.e. comments directed at me personally or questioning my integrety).

You are correct that a good "T" makes the game better. I will let the coach dissagree with a call as long as he/she is staying "in the game". Sounds to me like this was the case in your sitch and you handled it without having to "T".

Mike

[paulis]

For me, a coach qualifies for a T if he/she:
1) gets personal (usually using the "you" word)
2) uses profanity
3) shows me up
I also like to use this if it would appear to make the game better. But also if there is really nothing else I can do. If I or my partner really kick one and a coach goes primal, whacking him/her might not make the game any better. I will give the coach some run here but eventually might have to issue the T when there is nothing else I can do. There is a time to employ poor hearing and move the game on.

[mick]

Jewel,
I have still not "T'd" a coach, so my lines may be distorted.
My line is when a coach detracts from a certain dignity of the game.
mick

[Kelvin green]

Here's a couple of thoughts...
1) What does "incoherent with rage mean"? If this means throwing clip boards down, jumping up and down, screaming and yelling, and coming towards me out of the box, It would be a T. If he were just tight fisted and his face red like he held his breath for an hour, then no T is justified.

2) Dont let a coach getting mad let you change the rule. Only the head coach is allowed to stand, if you let the "assistant coach take over", and let him stand you have defeated the rule, the other team may see this or someone else and it would not look good.

[Mark Padgett]

Juulie - as you know, you and I did the same tournament this weekend, although we didn't cross paths (maybe because Josh and I had all boys games). On Saturday, I had a coach who was so far out of the coaching box, literally he was across the mid-court line. Although we weren't really enforcing that rule this weekend, I did tell him to stay relatively in front of his bench. I warned him again a few minutes later. Just a few minutes after that, Josh gave him a third warning. A moment later, I heard Josh blow his whistle for the T. I thought it was because the coach didn't move back after that third warning, but I found out at halftime I was wrong. What the coach did, was "flip Josh off"!!!

When Josh told me that, I asked him why he didn't toss the guy. He grinned and said, "Two reasons. First, he's doing such a lousy coaching job he's hurting his team more by staying in - and second, I'd rather T him up again later. You know he'll do something stupid to get one, and that way the other team gets more free throws." I told him he absolutely, positively should have tossed the guy for that.

I think he was only half-kidding. BTW - I informed the coach after the T that he was seat-belted and guess what - he did get another T later from me for refusing to stay on the bench. Boy - that was fun.

Actually, I was impressed with the restraint my partner used during some of the games with players who used some mild profanity. Twice, players were mad at themselves and muttered something that, even though it was directed only at themselves, came out pretty loud. In both cases, Josh waited for a quarter break and then mentioned it to the coaches. He said he'd appreciated it if the coach would talk to the player to make sure it didn't happen again. I thought that was good game management.

Also BTW - who talked to you about what happened with that coach? We did five games and no one said anything to us, even though we did have a couple of problems with coaches.

We did have a kind of funny situation in our last game on Sunday. Team A was up 6 with less than two minutes to go. Coach B yelled for his team to foul and B1 ran up to A1 and just pushed him with one hand in the small of the back. I called the intentional and A1 made both free throws. A2 went to inbound and B2 reached over the line and slapped the ball. I called the technical, and A1 shot the free throws and made both. A2 went to inbound to A1 and as soon as he did, B3 wrapped both arms around A1. Another intentional and again, A1 made both free throws. Almost no time off the clock and team A adds 6 quick points and then gets the ball back and finally wins by 15. Just a strange ending to what actually had been a pretty close game.

[rainmaker]

The coach had been basically quiet the whole game, and had protested a couple calls, but nothing beyond a sort of firm question. This was the only real outburst, so I guess I wasn't at MY threshhold yet. I did let the assistant coach stand, but it was only briefly while he grabbed the coach's arm, and the "statician" (coach's wife as it turns out) grabbed the other arm, and they sat him down. They all agreed that it was a bad call (although it wasn't) but they hadn't lost their tempers and so were using diplomacy to avoid a bigger problem. It wasn't loud enough to attract the attention of my partner who was lining up the girls for the free throw. He was out on the floor a step or three, but didn't keep walking as he yelled. The funny part was that the site supervisor who came and talked to me afterwards had been coaching the day before and had spent the whole game he had with me on the floor. WHen he told me that the coach on the floor was an automatic T, I said, "You didn't correct me yesterday when I didn't call it on you!"

Since the coach didn't have a lot more to say, I felt I had handled it pretty well, in spite of the criticism of the site supervisor.

Thinking back over the whole thing, he didn't impugn my veracity, my integrity or my heredity. He just kept yelling over and over, "Why is that not a foul? How can that not be a foul?" After hearing what y'all say, I still think it just wasn't a technical. So thanks folks -- another example where the board is helpful and up-building.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by rainmaker

...
Thinking back over the whole thing, he didn't impugn my veracity, my integrity or my heredity. He just kept yelling over and over, "Why is that not a foul? How can that not be a foul?" ...

Hey, if that's all he said then you done good by calming
him down & not T'ing him up. Real good.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Thinking back over the whole thing, he didn't impugn my veracity, my integrity or my heredity.

In some case, depending on how he knew you, that may still not be grounds to stick him. i mean, he could be right

It's late and I'm just yankin' your chain!

[Mark Padgett]

Juulie - in that same tournament, I had a coach keep yelling, "What do we have to do to get a foul call?" At first, I just ignored him. Then, after about the 50th time he yelled it, I told him that if he kept it up he'd find out real quick.

As you might have guessed, he shut up the rest of the game.

Man, I love this job.

[rockyroad]

Juulie - a good rule of thumb on calling a T on the coach is to ask yourself "Will it make the game better"...obviously there are certain situations where the T is pretty automatic, but in you case, you evaluated the situation and handled it appropriately...don't let the ravings of some site manager cause you to second-guess yourself...remember that with coaches, you can 1)Ignore them if you think it will make things better; 2)Talk to them if you think it will make things better; or 3)T them if you think it will make things better...you chose option #2 and it worked...nice job!

[JeffRef]

I put coach T's in 2 categories. The first category includes the easy ones to call (disrespect to the crew, ignoring a warning, or a calculated response or outburst). The other category is more difficult. This category includes emotional responses and outbursts. When emotions are tense I'll be a little more understanding and more inclined to talk rather than "T". I might say something like "I understand you're upset with the call. That was a tough play that could have gone either way. Let's move forward and get back to playing ball".

From the information provided, I say you resolved the problem appropriately.

Jeff.

[ChuckElias]

I gave a T last night to a coach for much less than what Juulie put up with. Girls' 7 & 8 grade game. My T fell into both of Jeff's categories

Originally posted by JeffRef
I put coach T's in 2 categories. The first category includes the easy ones to call (disrespect to the crew, ignoring a warning, or a calculated response or outburst). The other category includes emotional responses and outbursts. I might say something like "I understand you're upset with the call. That was a tough play that could have gone either way. Let's move forward and get back to playing ball".

I called a foul on his player and he immediately said, "Looked like a clean block, ref," which I ignored. Then he said it again. So I answered, "Slapped her across the wrist, Coach." I reported the foul and went to administer the free throws. He is still talking to me about the clean block. So before I administer the free throw, I said to him (very calmly, too), "Coach, that's all I want to hear about the call. Let it go."

In my view, that was his warning and "Let's move forward" at the same time. So I bounce the ball to the free thrower and while the ball's in the air, "Terrible call".

Tweet.

Yeah, it was a short leash, but it seemed clear to me that if I didn't stop it, it would continue for the whole game, and I wasn't about to have that. He wanted to talk to me about it at halftime, but other than that, he didn't say anything else to the officials for the rest of the game.

Chuck

[JeffRef]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
I gave a T last night to a coach for much less than what Juulie put up with. Girls' 7 & 8 grade game. My T fell into both of Jeff's categories

I called a foul on his player and he immediately said, "Looked like a clean block, ref," which I ignored. Then he said it again. So I answered, "Slapped her across the wrist, Coach." I reported the foul and went to administer the free throws. He is still talking to me about the clean block. So before I administer the free throw, I said to him (very calmly, too), "Coach, that's all I want to hear about the call. Let it go."

In my view, that was his warning and "Let's move forward" at the same time. So I bounce the ball to the free thrower and while the ball's in the air, "Terrible call".

Tweet.

Yeah, it was a short leash, but it seemed clear to me that if I didn't stop it, it would continue for the whole game, and I wasn't about to have that. He wanted to talk to me about it at halftime, but other than that, he didn't say anything else to the officials for the rest of the game.

Chuck

If you were put in this situation again, would you handle it differently?

Sounds to me like the coach wanted to be acknowledged. Could his behaviour (sorry, I'm Canadian!) and the subsequent "T" have been avoided if his original comment was acknowledged? Something like..."I had a great look at the play and the foul is the correct call". He still may think it was a "bad" call, but he needs to "respect" your decision.