Jim Burr

[Rich]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Wow, all of this has been going on and I haven't been involved? I have a take on this too! Surprise, surprise!

I wouldn't lump Welmer and Burr together.
Everyone on here should know I don't think much of Welmer. Sure, he hasn't been in many controversial situations. That will NEVER happen as long as he only calls the SUPER DUPER REALLY REALLY REALLY obvious calls. No matter what league it is, he is only going to call the obvious and not very much of those. The Big 10's physical play has nothing to do with it.

Burr is a great official, but he calls all over the court too much. I think he can still get it done, he just calls everything.

Rich, was Valentine wrong? Are you afraid to make the controversial call? You say Welmer and Burr must be at the top of their game because they get hired. Doesn't the same apply for Valentine? He is in the ACC, SEC and Big 10; he must be doing something right too and I'm sure he's been to more final fours than Welmer.

I think it is funny when someone says an official who is doing D1 basketball is automatically good and right. I mentioned this on another thread; officials are hired and hid all the time. It is a fact. Officials are also hired for different reasons - not only their ability. I can understand our (people on this forum) disdain for fanboys, but to some extent some of us are fanboys too. D1 officials make mistakes and they do not all have equal talent. Just like officials at the high school and JC level, the best officials do not always do the most or best games. Knowing that, some of us sure are drinking some strange Kool-Aid!

Read my post again. I never once said that I sided with Knight. I have great respect for Ted Valentine and think him a top official. I just said the only ****storm I remember involving a top official was that one.

I prefer Welmer's officiating style to many others, actually. Then again, I don't like watching a parade to the free throw line. Never have.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

What is right? Every foul call is subjective -- was there advantage/disadvantage to the point where the official decided to call a foul?

I live in Big 10 territory and the officials let the players play. It's a very physical league. How could you possibly say those officials are right? Or wrong?

Watching the game tape afterwards. This is what the officials do in the NBA and I do believe they make more money. If these guys are working every game they can possibly get, they don't have time to review the game before. In the NBA, reviewing the game tape afterwards is apart of their normal routine.

I agree, these guys don't get very many plays right but they are excellent at managing the game and the big ego's. Isn't that what it comes down to, who manages the game the best? This has nothing to do with how good you are. As far as IBM is concerned, you're right, but IBM is no longer the big dog either and the reason why is, they refused to change.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Wow, all of this has been going on and I haven't been involved? I have a take on this too! Surprise, surprise!

I wouldn't lump Welmer and Burr together.

Everyone on here should know I don't think much of Welmer. Sure, he hasn't been in many controversial situations. That will NEVER happen as long as he only calls the SUPER DUPER REALLY REALLY REALLY obvious calls. No matter what league it is, he is only going to call the obvious and not very much of those. The Big 10's physical play has nothing to do with it.

Burr is a great official, but he calls all over the court too much. I think he can still get it done, he just calls everything. There are many officials who work D1 and expect a double whistle all the time regardless of where the call is on the court. Not good.

Rich, was Valentine wrong? Are you afraid to make the controversial call? You say Welmer and Burr must be at the top of their game because they get hired. Doesn't the same apply for Valentine? He is in the ACC, SEC and Big 10; he must be doing something right too and I'm sure he's been to more final fours than Welmer.

I think it is funny when someone says an official who is doing D1 basketball is automatically good and right. I mentioned this on another thread; officials are hired and hid all the time. It is a fact. Officials are also hired for different reasons - not only their ability. I can understand our (people on this forum) disdain for fanboys, but to some extent some of us are fanboys too. D1 officials make mistakes and they do not all have equal talent. Just like officials at the high school and JC level, the best officials do not always do the most or best games. Knowing that, some of us sure are drinking some strange Kool-Aid!

Hired for different reasons? Sure. Working 110 games in a year? That guy is doing something right in someone's (actually 9-10 assignors') eyes.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Hired for different reasons? Sure. Working 110 games in a year? That guy is doing something right in someone's (actually 9-10 assignors') eyes.

Can you name those 9-10 assignors? Dale Kelly will only count once! I have heard he is a great guy and fun to be around. But that doesn't make a great official and I thought that is what we are talking about. I also know for a fact he makes his own schedule, literally.

I know you like his officiating style, but I have a question for you. Do you think Welmer is a great basketball official? If so, do you think part of being a great official includes avoiding or not recognizing tough calls and putting air in the whistle? Does being a great official, at any level, include doing what is right for the game regardless of who it pisses off? Can officiating be about doing right by the game AND an official's primary source of income without sacrificing one or the other?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Can you name those 9-10 assignors? Dale Kelly will only count once! I have heard he is a great guy and fun to be around. But that doesn't make a great official and I thought that is what we are talking about. I also know for a fact he makes his own schedule, literally.

I know you like his officiating style, but I have a question for you. Do you think Welmer is a great basketball official? If so, do you think part of being a great official includes avoiding or not recognizing tough calls and putting air in the whistle? Does being a great official, at any level, include doing what is right for the game regardless of who it pisses off? Can officiating be about doing right by the game AND an official's primary source of income without sacrificing one or the other?

But now that you force me to think about it a bit more, I've never been one to shy away from making an unpopular/difficult call and it's cost me a conference in the past 2 years. Before you cry for me, losing this conference was the best thing to happen to me as the closest school was about 80 miles away and I had to deal with crap every other game I worked in the conference.

My criteria on TV is different. I like seeing familiar faces. I can learn how to run a game from guys like this. I don't really care about how great they are technically. Although I'll never be able to do a jump ball like Welmer -- holding it up with one hand and essentially dropping it. Course I'm not 6'10", either

I'm not really a Welmer fanboy, although I enjoy watching him work. Don Rutledge? Now I was a fanboy of him, but mainly cause he said hi to me before a few Tennessee games when I went to school there. And cause he took absolutely no crap from anyone.

[cmathews]

Originally Posted by tomegun

There are many officials who work D1 and expect a double whistle all the time regardless of where the call is on the court. Not good.

If there are many D1 guys who think a double whistle is not only ok but expected, then where do you get off saying it isn't good? There are a lot of calls that happen in a gray area, many many calls/no calls a game. I don't see where double whistles here are a bad thing. As a matter of fact, if there is what a coach thinks is a close call that goes against him, you sure have a lot more ammunition if you had two whistles. IMHO

[Old School]

Originally Posted by blindmanwalking

Are you seriously comparing college officials to NBA officials? I'm not knocking the NBA guys because they are calling the game the way they are told to (I assume), however, the blatant rules violations and fouls that are never called puts nearly and college or top high school official above NBA guys IMO. I rarely watch NBA ball for this reason.

Hold the phone! What you are missing in your analogy is the players. These are the biggest, strongest, most athletic players in the world. Just being on the court with them is different, way different from HS, and stronger than college. They have to call this game different. Do not ever assume that a HS referee could referee an NBA game. Maybe a college men's official who's on top of his game, but a HS official would not make it. They would be too intimidated by the players.

It's really hard for me to watch NBA ball on TV prior to the playoff's. But refereeing it or being down there on the floor, it's fantastic! The 1st and 2nd round of the NBA playoff's is some very good basketball too. You should tune in there. I watch Phoenix every chance I get, they are a pleasure to watch, what pro ball should be.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Do you think Welmer is a great basketball official? If so, do you think part of being a great official includes avoiding or not recognizing tough calls and putting air in the whistle? Does being a great official, at any level, include doing what is right for the game regardless of who it pisses off? Can officiating be about doing right by the game AND an official's primary source of income without sacrificing one or the other?

Yes, I think that Welmer is a great official. One of the best. I also disagree with you that he is afraid to make tough calls, which is basically what you are intimating.

You obviously don't like him personally. Also obviously, the people that count do like him though. That's all that matters. He works multi-conferences, is on a pile of big games and always goes late into the tournament.

There are no perfect officials.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

There are no perfect officials.

Jon Diebler?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Jon Diebler?

Well, there always is one exception to any rule........

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yes, I think that Welmer is a great official. One of the best. I also disagree with you that he is afraid to make tough calls, which is basically what you are intimating.

You obviously don't like him personally. Also obviously, the people that count do like him though. That's all that matters. He works multi-conferences, is on a pile of big games and always goes late into the tournament.

There are no perfect officials.

I think I know what you mean, but to say I don't like him personally means there is something there besides my opinion of the way he officiates and that is not the case.
I also would disagree about him making tough calls.
How "deep" does he normally go in the tournament?

[blindmanwalking]

Originally Posted by Old School

Hold the phone! What you are missing in your analogy is the players. These are the biggest, strongest, most athletic players in the world. Just being on the court with them is different, way different from HS, and stronger than college. They have to call this game different. Do not ever assume that a HS referee could referee an NBA game. Maybe a college men's official who's on top of his game, but a HS official would not make it. They would be too intimidated by the players.

It's really hard for me to watch NBA ball on TV prior to the playoff's. But refereeing it or being down there on the floor, it's fantastic! The 1st and 2nd round of the NBA playoff's is some very good basketball too. You should tune in there. I watch Phoenix every chance I get, they are a pleasure to watch, what pro ball should be.

I'm not missing anything in my analogy. If these are the most athletic players in the world they shouldn't have much trouble following the rules. Again, that's likely how NBA officials are told to call the game, I just don't like it. My preference. I'm a bit of a purist when it comes to the game.

I take it you have officiated in the NBA?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tomegun

I think I know what you mean, but to say I don't like him personally means there is something there besides my opinion of the way he officiates and that is not the case.

Well, Tom, from the shots that you take at the guy, it would be hard to think otherwise than you didn't like him personally. You certainly seem to go out of your way to dump on him. That's fine though. Everybody gets to have their own opinion.

And as for how far he's gone in tournaments and how many assignors he's got, sorry, I try to keep right away from that kind of nonsense. I'll leave that to the fanboys, stripe-sniffers and haters. Personally, imo if they're working constantly and consistently at the D1 level, then they're a good official. Period. That doesn't mean that they're not gonna screw up every now and then though. They're good, but they're also human.

[secondregionbug]

Why get on Welmer? He is cool and a great role model for young officials who are going to AA or NA!

[biz]

Look, obviously Welmer is a very good official or he wouldn't get all the assignments that he gets in major Div I college hoops. That being said you cannot compare Welmer to Jim Burr because of one very simple stat....

Final Fours officiated: Jim Burr -- 15
Steve Welmer -- 0

Final Fours separate the very good from the great and the Welmer's from the Burr's