Would you have T ed ?
 

Sunday I was doing the local championship game of a NJB div 3 game (9 and 10 year olds). Packed gym, no complaints that I could hear as it was very noisy with all the people. 24 sec left, Team "A" 31, Team "B" 32. Team A player stumbles (I didnt see a trip or foul and neither did my partner), Boy falls down looses ball out of bounds. He's on floor crying like a baby, coach come out on floor towards the boy and yells at me and said Whats up with that Ref....you got something against that kid? That pissed me off so much that he would say I didnt care for that kid. I dropped the ball and was getting ready to give the whistle and T, I was actually bring my hands up but in a split second I thought If I did that I would take away a good game from the kids and Team "B" could Ice the game because of the team "A" coach if I called it. Boy was fine, and coach gave me a dirty look as he walked off the court and I was steaming inside just waiting for him to say something else but he didnt so, I sucked it up and handed the ball in. Team "B" threw away the inbound pass and Team "A" got it back....took 4 or 5 shots missing and game was over....I felt justice was served by team "B" winning and I felt I did the right thing by sucking it up this time....Just woundering what anybody else would have done.:confused:

If the coach comes out on instinct to look at the kid, okay, but as soon as he starts yelling at me then I'm whacking him. You're not going to cost team A the win, their coach is by committing a technical foul.

I realized that....thats kinda what I ment....I didnt want the stupid coach to blow it for his team with such a dumb comment....I guess you could say I took one for the benifit of a great game up to that point.

Did he offer any assistance to the boy, or did he just come out to yell at you? The OP is a little unclear to me. If he comes out on to the court just to yell at you, I've got no problem with the T. If he comes out on the court to help the boy, and you're not going to T him for coming out without being beckoned (which I certainly wouldn't) then I have a little problem with the T for the comments. If he had said this to you on the sidelines, would you have considered T'ing him?

I say just let it slide, and let the coach know that you saw no foul or trip(the people who are good with words will probably be along shortly with a good phrase to use), and then let him get the kid off the court, and then remind him he needs to get a sub in and start the replacement interval.

On a final note, don't let how the T would affect the game decide whether or not you call it. If it's a T with one team up by 50, then it's a T in a tie game. And also, don't take the comments personally or become emotionally upset over them. Lord knows that if I took them all personally, I probably couldn't sleep at night. Just take it as the coach being stupid in the heat of the moment. Keep your cool, and you'll do just fine!

I would have T'd him up in a second. First of all this is 9 or 10 year olds. This is not the NBA. Secondly he questioned your integrity. I do not care if part of his job was to offer the kid assistance he was not going to do it yelling at me. If he got a T, then he might realize that is not the time or the place to start yelling at officials. Send that a-hole to the showers.

Peace

Philz,

As I think it apparent, JRut's and my opinions on this are quite different, but I see JRut's point of view. I think you're probably going to get lots of different points of view on this, so I would encourage you to read them, and then decide what you think works best. Sometimes on this forum, people will try to argue that there's a hard and fast answer to these kinds of questions, but IMO there are not, and you've got to figure out what works for you.

NewNCref,

He asked for opinions. If he asked for opinions, I am sure he is bright enough to realize that we all will not agree or give the same opinion. I am telling him/her what I would do. What he/she does in this situation is up to them. This is why it is called "judgment." I am not giving a coach a free shot to question my integrity and yell at me in that situation. You do what you want to do. It is your credibility on the line, not mine.

Peace

any public questioning of my integrity is an automatic T -- if this is a private conversation the coach can get away with this one but I will let him know that if he chooses to question my integrity again it will cost him. this falls under the public type of calling out and IMO is a T. Like JRut mentions 9th and 10th grade basketball no biggie. But even in HS the score and position of the game should not be a factor in theory however in reality it does come into play.

Here I would have T'd him up and any whining that I cost them the game falls on deaf ears because the fact remains that I would not have made that call if the coach had not called my integrity into question. cause and effect.

One T that for some reason I remember from a 4th 5th grade girls tourney where one of the local Hs varsity girls coaches coaches this team yells across the court after I make a call "You better not make that call in a HS game." well he got rung up. couple months later the season started and I had him -- nevertheless couple times he started trying to push the envelope I was able to utilize the Old School Imminent Stare of Death Destruction and Doom (tm) and he quickly retreated. Point is -- sometimes how you carry yourself in the offseason can help you out in the games that matter (yes, yes they ALL mater of course they do).

Amen!!

No brainer imo either.

No, justice wasn't served at all. You're deluding yourself if you think that.

Quit thinking so much and just call the game. If someone commits an unsporting act, penalize it instead of making up excuses for not doing so.

Thanks for the feedback but I want to let you all know I'm not affraid to T anybody and have called a lot of them this year at many different levels of b-ball and have even tossed 3 people so far but I have tolerated more than alot and maybe not as much as some....I also remember when I played and coached I said some dumb stuff out of fustration, been T ed and ejected also and know what that is like on the other end but one thing I hear all the time in officating....other sports also....is to try and keep the players or coach in the game if at all possible....guess my biggest problem is where I personally draw the line because that comment pissed me off like no other thing I heard all year and I just sucked it up for the kids....I felt good about it after the game but still questioning myself if it was right.

I'd say you have wisdom beyond your years, but I'm not sure if that's possible.:D

Thanks, I think......:D

If he comes out there to tend to the kid and tells me I need to call something, I'm probably going to let that go depending on the volume and tone.
If he comes out to tend the to the kid and questions my integrity, and I don’t see any other way to take "You got something against this kid?" then it's an easy T. The natural reaction to a kid getting hurt on a no-call is to tell the ref he needs to be calling something. The natural reaction is not to accuse the ref of having something personal against the player.

Amen to that. Don't fix it up now. If you give 100 T's in a season, posting this means you should have given 101. :D

Whack him, whack him, and maybe whack him. My partner got the "don't cheat the kids" line this weekend.

Is the JRut or JUrassic? I'm confused. :confused: :p

This reads just like a classic JRut posting.

Is this a JRut posting or a Jurassic posting? I'm confused. :confused: :p

So you're in favor of penalizing a kid for insulting an official but if someone in the crowd insults/gets personal with a kid you consider it part of the game?
Your not very consistent.

Absolutely assess the T. You aren't costing the kids a thing, their coach is for being an idiot. I had to call a similar T in a JV girls game this year. They are invited out on the floor to attend to a player, not to complain about you.

Yes I am consistent. I officiate the game, not society. The coach is part of the team and can be dealt with accordingly. I not even sure how you can marry the two together? You will be a very busy guy dealing with players coaches and fans. Remember I wasn't in favor of abusive behavior, just didn't think it was my job to deal with it. There are rare times when the game needs to stop to control,or remove a spectator. But for booing, clever signage, and turning back during visiting intros? Not my problem. If the school admin. isn't worried why should I be.

Given the time left in the game, score, and the situation in general, I think a great official will do everything is her power to avoid the calling the Technical Foul, and then still issue it when she's done her part of not being a part of the game.

I'd call the T in your case.

This sitch is a perfect example of why not to hang around, and in fact to get away from, the coach and injured player.

I would have started walking away as soon as the C came onto the court. No need for you to be there.

If I were standing right next to the kid as the coach came out and he said that, I would probably T him. (Nah, I'd definitely T him at this age level!) But the best thing would be NOT to be standing right there. Anytime a kid goes down and the coach or trainer comes out on the floor get away from the kid. That way the coach has to either yell across the floor or chase you to yell at you. And in those cases, the T is easier to call b/c everybody in the gym knows what happened.

The three things you mention aren't in the same category as what is being discussed. Personal insults during a game directed at a player are your business. It only takes a couple of minutes to get an AD or other administrator to deal with it. It will be the last time you have to at that game. Also keep in mind that you are on the floor with the players and will hear things game management will not. It is your obligation to the game to work with game management to deal with potentially explosive situations.
I have yet to remove a fan from a game but will not hesitate if they start verbally abusing a player. I've noticed an escalation in the tone of comments at 3 or 4 of my games this year. I would rather remove a fan than see a player go after him. JMO

You got quite a few opinions out here on this, and they are varied and all correct. However, I commend you for "not" giving the T in this situation because of what you stated; you had a great game, and for the betterment of the game, you took one. Hooray for you, this is good officiating and the rest of the people out here should take note. You took one for the home team, the referees. We reward sacrifices like this in the armed forces with a metal of honor. You've earned one today, at least imo, you did. You could have blasted him and been correct in your call, however, IMO, the only thing you would have proven is that it's all about you. You took it personal and it was not meant as a personal attack on your character as an official. It was an emotional outburst from a coach who was into it, as he should be. Add on to that an injured player in a very close game that he was one point behind in, and he needed something called in his favor at that point in time, which he didn't get. His timing for saying this was not good, however, you proved to be the bigger man this day and ignored it for what it was, an emotional, not well thought out outburst. What you did cannot be learned from reading a rulebook, but I can tell you with certainly, that this is what true officiating is all about. Being able to separate yourself from the emotion of the game and dealing with the game not as a controller, dominate person with a chip on his shoulder, but a participant in the game with responsibilities to the game. In certain situation there are times when the rule makers want us to apply judgment instead of the rule of law and it's really hard to explain judgment (when is enough enough) but I thought your judgment here was outstanding.

For the next time, when you blow the play dead and beckon for the coach, you should be walking the other way like the others here have suggested. In fact, this is a good time to go talk with your partner, head the furthest away from the coach, IOW, don't go walk by the coach or the bench. Go talk to your partner about the last 24 seconds of the game, how many TO's is left, anybody in the bonus, last sec. shot, etc. Just giving you something to think about to go do. Since the kid is standing there hurt, you ain't putting that ball in right away so no need to stand there getting ready to hand the ball to Team B. This gets you and the coach out of harms way. I call it preventative officiating, even if it's in reverse. My point is, you can't call a T on something you didn't hear.;)

My opinion, based on what the coach stated is not T worthy. Now, if he laced that comment with a few swear words, yea, you're getting it. However, I know exactly what you mean when you say those words bothered you. Welcome to officiating. Had a similar thing happened last night in a wreck league. Had to have a few afterwards to calm myself down before going home.

How is it good for any game to let a Kiddieball coach teach the kids that it is OK to whine and complain about officiating? Sportsmanship should be the #1 priority in any game, especially Kiddieball.

now we know you did the wrong thing if OS sides with you -- by the way what metal would he have gotten had he started blasting fools up in the gym?

Look, youv'e been known to use some pretty absurd hyperbole. This is probably in your top two. Utterly senseless. You're hung up on this "all about you" kick. It's not what he would have shown. He would have shown you shouldn't accuse a ref of cheating in a game. Period. Wrong. An emotional outburst is more like, "You've got to call something." Asking if you have something against the kid is personal, and it's been brewing for a while to come to that comment. It's not the first thing that comes to anyone's mind.
Swear words aren't necessary when he accuses you having something personal against his kids.This, I believe.

Philz - one thing I will say is that it's easy to be a Monday morning quaterback and say oh yeah, I would have T'd him up in a heart beat. Been there, done that.

But, as a newer ref, I feel for you and have second guessed myself at times. Most times I too say, I shoulda been more forceful and next time I will T em up. But, that event is gone, and we grow, learn, and become more seasoned.

I will say, in the past, I have been more tolerant, right or wrong, with the wreck league coaches, especially at the younger leagues, than I am with the older ages, MS, JV, and HS. But, as I gain more experience, watch, read, and learn more, I imagine that may change.......:D and I'll whack em more and become less tolerant!

It is a learning process. I've always been taught, and I now feel this way, that if you feel like you should have given after the game, you probably should have. As time goes on, you'll get a better feel for what you find unsportsmanlike and what you will put up with. Personally, and I think most on this board will agree, the lower level you work, the less unsportsmanlike conduct I'd put up with. The players are still learning the game. Coaches should be concerned with teaching the players, not questioning officials that are volunteering their time, or providing their service for a lower pay.

Junk - so, the HIGHER the level I work, the MORE unsportsmanlike conduct I should put up with? :confused:

He is basically saying that the lower the level, the less you tolerate. You may warn at the higher level because the participants will understand where you are coming from. The lower level coach or player has no little understanding where the line is. You have to ultimately have to decide where for yourself where that line is.

Peace

I don't know if I would go that far, I think everyone gets the point but you. The official took a DIRECT insult, that's like a direct unprotected body shot in boxing. On the battlefield, that's like getting hit with a bullet and continuing to fight, paving the way for the others. By not giving the coach a T, it preserved the integrity of the game, and also the integrity for the C. A double win. I didn't mention that. This guy knocked down two birds with one stone, one no-call. He hits the C with a T and half the parents are going to be piss at him for getting that T so late in a 1 point game. The ones that saw the play would have really been upset b/c the kid didn't get foul, he just fell on the floor. In HS or college, that could've ended his career. It turned out that the team still lost, so preserving that T saved the coaches face with his supporters. Okay, I'll back down on the metal but we got to give him a stripe for that one, he earned it here.

I read somewhere out here where a poster said, sometimes a no call, is the best call! Being that the team still lost, the no-call becomes even bigger, imo. You see, it would not have changed anything which means it was the best thing to do. The game ended normally which shows the protection for the game, which is what everybody wanted to see happen. Calling the T would have sour the normal ending, tainted the winning teams victory, got the coaches all upset with you, now you got a confrontation you might have to deal with, and the coach never swore. You know we already talked about that thin skin of yours. If you going to call a T on the coach late in the game, make sure he earns it.

No, I got the analogy, and words can't describe how inappropriate it is. Taking an insult is nothing like taking a bullet. To even compare the two is insulting to Medal of Honor winners, who did a hell of a lot more than take an insult to get that award. You were better off not mentioning it, because it's bogus. He didn't call it because he didn't want to "decide the game." He allowed the coach to question his integrity without consequence. Who cares? It's 10 year old boys. What would happen to a hs coach or a college coach is beyond irrelevant. Making that comment is beyond the pale, it's beyond an emotional outburst. It's a coach using an emotional moment as an excuse to verbally attack an official and accuse him of a personal bias. HS and college coaches know better, so he wouldn't have to worry about it at that level. Again with the irrelevant facts. I don't care who wins or loses. The fact that you didn't give a T to a deserving coach doesn't become ok just because he loses the game anyway. I'ts a non sequiter. Only in so far as he learned a lesson on how he wants to handle it next time. I'm not going to say every official should call this a T ever time; but I will and every decent official I know personally would as well. The only experienced guys I know who won't are strictly working ms and ymca ball.
Apples and oranges. That refers to situations where there's really no advantage on a contact situation. It has nothing at all to do with sportsmanship issues. This is just inane. It doesn't mean crap. It only means the official wants to just get his check and go home. (Note, I'm not saying that's why the OP didn't make this call. I'm saying it's how OS's reasoning comes across.)No, the game didn't end normally. It ended with a coach having called a ref's integrity into question without consequence. And I don't give a rat's a$$ if he swore or not here; except that adding an F-bomb might make it flagrant. It's not about me. It's not about thick or thin skin. It's about preserving the respect for the game and the officials. I couldn't care less what he thinks about me; he could think I've taken a bribe to throw the game to the other team for all I care; but he's not going to accuse me of cheating. He can make his point, and express his emotions, another way. If he can't, he'd best find another hobby.

And to paraphrase another ref on this board, he'll be done coaching before I'm done officiating.

Not necessarily, but sometimes. As Rut says, you can give warnings more effectively at that level. Also, the players have learned better sportsmanship by that level; for a couple of reasons. First of all, they've got more experience playing and watching Rasheed Wallace on TV is a smaller part of their greater basketball experience.
Second, the coaching is better, so the kids are taught by their coaches to cut it out. There are exceptions, but that's why we have the T.

That again ties for the stoopidest post ever on this forum.

Not giving a deserved "T" doesn't preserve the integrity of anything. It just points out that an official has no balls. You <b>never</b> walk away from a direct insult.

That's another great statement. Don't call a deserved "T" because it might piss of the fans. And if you do piss off the fans, that's gonna end your career.

You've now gone past the point of "that's so dumb that you just have to laugh at it" and you're approaching "Good Lord, have you ever <b>seen</b> a damn basketball game, let alone officiated in one?".

Whack.

End of story.

I would have T'ed him. He made you look like a bad person in front of the packed gym. He disrespected and in youth sports that warrants a T since coaches are to be role models for the kids.

Why does that stupid clown still have an account?!?!?! :mad:

We're on a bb forum, try to keep your focus on that! It was used as an example, not a matter of fact, some referees are wound way too tight!

This is where I think you all need to take a step back. You have admitted that if this was a higher level game, you would have just given a warning, but since it's a lower level game, you call it differently. My position is why call a game 2 different ways, depending on what level you're working. If it's a technical at the lower level, then it's a technical at the higher level. Also, you are completely naive if you think this type of communications doesn't occur at the upper levels. It might even be worse at the upper levels because more is at stake. My position is to develop your tolerance level so that it's the same, no matter what lever you are working.

If you feel that this comment was a direct attack on your character. You need to get out more. Believe me, it gets much worse than that. Have you ever heard somebody say things in the heat of battle that they wish they didn't say? If you have ever coach a competitive game of bb, you will know that there are times when you say things out of emotion of the moment that you wish you didn't. And I just don't mean saying things that are out of line to the officials. BB is an emotional sport and as officials, we can't be emotional too, we can't get caught up in the heat of the moment. Being a good official requires balance in everything we do on the court, including dealing with emotions. I know that the majority of you disagree with this position. What this tells me is the majority of you will remain where you are at, because you think it's all about you. How did the one poster say it. "You let the coach insult YOU in front of everyone and get away with it. You just keep calling technicals everytime a coach says something to you that you don't like and see how far that takes you.

Well, it'll probably take you out of rec league ball. Is that far enough?

That's not nice. I don't think JR's stupid.

Keep your "examples" and analogies within the realm of appropriate, and we'll be fine.

Show me where someone who said they'd T here said they'd give a warning in HS. I didn't. I'd T this in a high school game as well and not lose any sleep over it.No, you need to get out more. Coaches at upper levels know better and can control their emotions. It's true, it's true. I've seen it.
I know you don't get this, but calling a T isn't an emotional experience. In fact, it's more often than not a very calming one for the coach involved. You don't have any clue what it takes to be a mediocre official, how are you going to tell someone how to be a good one?

Am so....

http://www.gifs.net/other/crit_suc.gif

Comparing a sport to combat is a bad analogy, but if you are going to do it in this situation, it would be more like the enemy surrendering then pulling out a gun and shooting you when you go to detain him.

You just prove my point. You need to get out more. Did you forget about Bobby Knight?

If you would have blasted a T at the precise moment the coach made that comment to you, like the OP almost did but caught himself. That would have been an emotional T. You reacted to his comment the exact same way he reacted to the play. Both actions, not well thought out, imho.

A wise man once said; two wrongs don't make a right, and you can't fight fire with fire unless you won't to burn everything down.

I'll bet even Bobby Knight knows better than to accuse his refs of cheating. If not, well, he has been known to get a few Ts.

No, I probably would have thought about it for a second, 'cause I don't get that comment often and it would have taken a moment to register. Just because you might get emotional on your technical fouls in the local rec league doesn't mean that's how real refs do it.

That said, even if it did register immediately and I T'd him right away, it's no more emotional than calling a travel as soon as you see it.

Again, you might want to get a new wise man. This wise guy is just giving you cliches.

This sounds like a guy that gets it. You know, that thing they call "IT". This guy gets it, unfortunately, you don't.

A wise man once said; if you got it, you don't need it; if you need it and you don't have it, then you really have no idea, how to get it.

Disagree. I think it points out the official cares more for the game and the integrity of the game then he does himself. You can't teach this JR. This is the type of referee I want to see move up to the next level because he truly cares about the game. He's not a; it's all about me official.

I think you misunderstood this one too chief. I meant ending the coaches career. At some level, whether the T was justified or not, this action by the coach is going to come back to him. Getting a T with 24 seconds left in a one point game is dumb. What I was saying was not calling the T preserved the coaches career for maybe another season or two.

you are aware that this guy that gets "it" is the same guy you have been berating for 3 pages right?? Which really proves how much you actually pay attention. But it is nice of you to argue with his lack of it, then commend him for having it....hmmmmmmm By the way I don't agree with posts from you as a general rule, but I do agree that Snaqwells most likely has "it"

My Oh My...as for extending a coaches career a couple more years...wow...not my concern, and most especially in a 10 yr old's league....I must admit seeing these posts is like a train wreck, I know I shouldn't look, but I can't stop myself LOL....

Old School, I know where to get IT. On Ebay! I saw the commercial the other day! :D

You have to be one of the biggest AZZ CLOWNS in the world. I generally don't go around wearing my patriotism on my sleeve. However, as a veteran of Panama, and Desert Storm your analogy is completely ridiculous. NOTHING in sports compares to battle. If you have been in one you would know that. I actually enjoy your idiotic rants on here, it keeps me loose. Since most of your posts are a page long take some more time and write something less disrespectful to those of us who have served. If you have served yourself, your and even bigger idiot.

:D I got IT!

http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/h...g1226HPtag.jpg

I guess it's time for my monthly "Why are any of you taking Old School seriously?" post. :eek:

i try and just say i will ignore but its true -- its a train wreck that i cannot turn my head away -- so please let him continue.

If a coach is that stupid, his career ought to be cut short; and one T in one game isn't going to help or hurt him.

Bawling like a Baby?
 

As I read this post, this is the phrase that stuck with me. Don't know why, but it did. The kids are 9 or 10 and when they fall some will cry. Sometimes the crying doesn't match the nature of the injury.

Don't know if this is the case, but remember at this level these coaches are probably parents and/or friends of the kid. This might be a reason why the coach reacted the way he did.

Sounds like you had reason to T him up, but showed great restraint. Sounds like great advice on how to handle these situations. Keep up the good work.

Couldn't have been very wise...

Even if you had T'd the coach, and I would have, you would not be taking the game away from the kids. He had already done that with his comments that drew a T. Giving the T might educate the coach and kids about respect for officials.

The score should never dictate whether or not an official makes a call. If there is a foul or violation that has been called consistently throughout the game - it should be called every time it occurs.

I HATE it when I hear someone say something like; "it's a tight one - don't call anything unless there's blood. Let the kids decide it" As far as I'm concerned - the kids do decide it but the deciding factor could have been a player doing something illegal that required an official to make a call.

Yabut, do you know how to <b>cure</b> IT?

How about an account amputation, then a cute band-aid?

From an old western movie somewhere
 

You got IT the old fashioned way, and we are gonna cure IT the old fashioned way......

Amputation?:eek:

Banishment from the kingdom?

as I recall
 

as I recall from the movie, amputation may have been kinder...it was a searing hot metal rod, inserted into a very uncomfortable place....usually found only on the male of the species....

I'd say this is "T" worthy at pretty much every level and especially in a 9-10 year old game.

Just curious, why is OS the only person standing on his side of the fence in most senerios and yet he says everyone else needs to "get out more"? I'd also like to know where he goes when he get's out so I don't bump into him.

Depending on where the coach is within his career. If he's had several losing seasons and gets a T that could possibly cost his team a trip to the playoff's. Could be devastating. Once you get out of the lower level ball mindset, these type of things could become an issue. If, as an official, you have one way you like to approach these types of situation, it becomes the same medicine, the same cure, the same response for whatever level you work.

Welcome to officiating. You hate to have a game come down to an officials call, but sometimes it happens.

Good point, you might catch it.

Well, that should be a technical foul.....

Makes as much sense as some of the other stuff being posted in this thread.....:D

My point is that if this coach is teetering on getting fired, and my T would send his employer over the edge to fire him; not calling that T would only postpone the inevitable anyway. That's a big "if," though. Besides, his career progression isn't my concern. It's the game, and it's bigger than any coach or official.
I don't call this T to make him like me or respect me or because of how it makes me feel. I call the T because coaches and players need to know they can't get away with calling a ref a cheater. How it makes me feel is irrelevant.

Oh, by the way, your strawman is burning.

No disrespect intended, but my analogy is just that, an analogy, not a statement of fact. People draw analogies all the time, some maybe closer than others, but if you can't distinguish the difference, then maybe you are the idiot. Quite trying to change the subject. Now repeat after me, it's not all about me.

Wizards down by two with .1 seconds to go in the game. Arenas gets the foul call and Nellie (coach) gets the T.....Arenas hits all three FT's and Wizards win by 1! Game over..... :rolleyes:

I would have given the T because it's 9 and 10 year olds. I can also see that the way you handled it worked out OK. It depends on the official. Joe Crawford gives more T's than just about anybody. Players and coaches learn it and play accordingly. Some referees let more go before whacking somebody. Neither way is wrong in my opinion.

Original Post
 

Something about the original post brought back a memory to me. It just took me a few days to figure it out.

Girls varsity prep school tournament game. Visiting coach had been complaining about calls most of the first half. Nothing worth a technical foul, but just a constant "nag". Just before halftime a visiting player is fouled, and as she falls to the floor, is injured, enough to bekon the coach onto the court. He comes onto the court with his trainer. The trainer tends to the injured player. The coach "tends to us" and takes this opportunity to complain to both of us that we're not calling enough fouls, we're doing a terrible job, etc. We move away from him, and he proceeds to follow us, so we move farther away. This behavior would have and should have deserved a technical foul under any other circumstance, but my partner and I discussed it a decided that we did not want to make a big deal and call a technical foul while the the player was still in pain on the floor, making every one believe that we were more concerned about the coach than the player's painful injury, but that we would give the coach no more latitude and would call a technical foul the next time he complained. Wouldn't you have it, the coach never said "boo" the entire second half.

We missed our chance. I learned from that expereience. It will never happen again.

The analogy was yours. THINK before you type. Try something different for a change, and then you can go back to the dolt you normally are.

#1.) This is ridiculous. Wait until they get the player off the floor and you are ready to continue the game. Then you give the coach the T. Otherwise, I have to believe the coach is right and you guys where doing a bad job. I say this because of your reluctance to check the coach. I can't believe you didn't say to the coach to go tend to your player while he was complaining, right now, she is more important. If he continues, just say okay coach, you can continue to talk but that's going to cost you a T.

The difference with your analogy and the OP is that the coach made one comment and it was over. He did not continue to follow the guys around. This is not the same circumstance at all. You should feel bad you didn't give out a well deserved T.

Why Beat A Dead Horse
 

From Old School: "You should feel bad you didn't give out a well deserved T."

From BillyMac: "We missed our chance. I learned from that expereience. It will never happen again."

Old School: Just what part of "We missed our chance. I learned from that expereience. It will never happen again.", did you not understand. I'm a brother official. Why would you want to pile it on?

From Old School: "I have to believe the coach is right and you guys where doing a bad job."

Old School: The only information you have about this game is that the coach's conduct deserved a technical foul, that we chose, incorrectly, not to give a technical foul, and from that you deduce that we were doing a bad job. It sounds like you're putting more weight on the coaches unsporting conduct then on our poor decision to not give a technical foul. There are no perfect officials. I'm sure that, like all officials, we missed some calls in that game, but the only real bad call that we made in that game was to wait to give a technical foul.

From Tri-City (Washington State) Officials Association (As posted on this Forum): "The technical foul is given ... if giving a technical will help give structure back to the game and if it will have a calming effect on things."

From BillyMac: "The coach never said "boo" the entire second half."

Old School: Even though I still believe that we were wrong to not give a technical foul in this situation, we didn't give a technical foul and the game improved and the coach calmed down, which according to some sources, is a good reason to give a technical foul. Bottom line: We incorrectly chose not to give a technical foul, but it still worked out in the end, the game improved and the coach calmed down.

I deducted that if the coach attacked you and you retreated that in your mind, you felt he was right. My reason for piling on was to shock you into never letting that happen again, and I followed that up with a couple of examples. Saying it and doing it is two different things.

One more thing, I thought that was good character not wanting to give a T while the girl was laying hurt on the floor. These things can't be taught or learned from a rulebook. I respect that because most of the guys on this forum would have gone into it's all about me mode. Just remember this, you don't have to show the T sign to give a technical. Walk over to the table when you are about ready to start and tell the table we have a technical foul on the coach for constant complaining. Notify both benches, get you a shooter and continue on. You can low-key the event.

Sorry for piling on, thanks for sharing.

You assume OS is an official. Not everyone here subscribes to that theory.
I'm just saying.

No, you're just hating....

Naw, it's not hating.It's just kinda hard to take anyone seriously who professes to be an official but <b>never</b> has owned a rule book. That would be like me claiming to be a nuclear physicist because I watch the Science channel.:)

I think the worst thing an official can do to other officials is not give the T when warranted. The T in the OP was an obvious one. You have to call it. The fact that a player is hurt doesn't matter, this stuff about a coach clinging to a job should not enter our mind (I don't know where that came in). If a coach deserves it, give it. The coach is called out to attend to the player, not to complain to the officials. When officials don't sack up and take care of business it sends the message to that coach or player that their behavior is acceptable. My one regret this season is that I let a coach stick around in a game when I should have given his second and tossed him. I regret it because rather than have to sit out and not be a jerk to the next crew in, he got to coach.

did you run this by your accountant first, and how much is this particular deduction?? I deduce from your post that the money was just piling up :D

More propaganda from the almighty one.

Well, everytime he brings it up, all you can do is call him names and say big words like "propaganda". How about addressing it directly; a simple 'yes' or 'no' answer will do:

Do you currently have a copy of the NFHS rule book and case book?

A (real) wise man once said: "It is better for one to remain silent and have people think they're the fool, rather than open one's mouth and remove all doubt."

Don't shoot the messenger.

Have a nice day.

If you where a real referee, you wouldn't have to ask such a dumb question.

Let's quite BS'ing each other and get down to the real issue. The true question is not whether I have a rule book (hence propaganda) or not, the question is whether or not I'm a real official. A very wise artist once said, if you don't know me by now (after 400+ posts), you will never never never know me. I would be impressed if you knew off the top who sang that.

So the true ?? is, do you believe I'm an official? The answer is entirely up to you. Do I believe you are a real official? It doesn't matter to me. I will respect you as long as you are respectful of me. However, once you crossed that proverbial line, there is no going back.

Now, we have to think about how we define "real official." If it's just someone who owns a striped shirt, whistle, and black shorts, then it doesn't matter.

If it is someone who actually belongs to an organization of officials (peers who train and teach and hold each other accountable), who studies the rules in an effort to better understand them and to better apply them to games, and who actually cares about the game itself instead of the check; well, then let's just say there are quite a few refs that don't qualify.

I'm certain that M&M, however, does qualify.

Unfortunately, the question isn't as dumb as the answer.

You have, by so obviously avoiding answering a simple, direct question, actually showed your lack of respect for me. You want me to stop BS'ing you, however, that is all you to to any of us that ask you direct questions.

I now have no doubt you have outright lied when you answered my question about what levels you have officiated. I now have no doubt JR is absolutely correct when he says you do not have, or have even seen, an NFHS rule book. Many actual officials can see through the facade, even inexperienced ones. Most of us that post on this forum try to help our avocation by teaching others less experienced than us. I still learn things from people more experienced than me. But we will continue to point out your obvious mis-statements and bad advice. You certainly have a right to your opinion. Likewise, we have a right to ours. If you don't like it, feel free to go elsewhere.

Btw, who the hell cares if I know about Harold Melvin and the Blue Notes?

Old School is most likely a "real official". That doesn't mean he has to be a good official or even know what he is talking about. He is the type of official he always talks about not wanting to work with again. Only in this case you wouldn't want to work with him the first time. Let's also be clear that just because an official owns a rule book, doesn't mean they understand what is in it. We have all worked with guys who have been around long enough that they "know" the game, and don't need the book. And there are also those officials who can't quite conprehend what the rule book says. The book only gives you the rules, it doesn't go out on the floor with you and help you apply them. So with that, we should allow Old School to say he's a "real official" but all hope that none of us ever has to work with him.

Harold Melvin and the Bluenotes (Teddy P. singing lead).

Decent remake by Simply Red in the 90's.

:cool: :D

I would not bet all my money on that.

Do what you feel you have to do for the sake of others, but take some advise from me. Don't bet all your money on what JR thinks. I'm going to continue to do what I feel is best for the sake of others too. Just remember one thing, you can't bullsh!it the bullsh!itter.

Perhaps the only thing you have stated on this discussion that is worth reading. Perhaps you should take your own advice and simply not respond if it's something you don't like instead of playing the hate card. Teaching people to hate others that share a different opinion is bad for the world that we share and must all live in.

You do, since you mentioned it. Quit hating so much, life is too short. Now repeat after me, it's not all about me, again, it's not all about me. It's about the players and the game, but it's not all about me!

You almost had a real good post here. If you could take out the personal attacks, which BTW, is what we are supposed to do as officials, that is not take sides, being neutral. You guys have shown that you don't have what it takes internally to be a true official. On the outside you are fine, but on the inside, you lack what it takes. Your persistence to want to put me down, make me look bad in the eyes of others, the propaganda, is well beyond the art of officiating. IMHO, good officials, true officials do not engage in such personal attacks on each other.

i havent seen any personal attacks -- what I have seen is a very good, clear and concise debuffing of ones apparent credentials or lack thereof.

Apparently, a thorough disagreement and debunking is a personal attack. <shrug>

Again, still no direct answer, just BS.

Yes or no: Do you currently have the rule book and case book?

What does this mean? Lay it out for me, since sometimes I might be a little dense. Who's doing the bullsh!tting, and who is the bullsh1tter in this conversation?

Interesting. The only person talking about hate is you. I really don't hate you. :) Do you hate me, and others? Is that why you are bringing up hate?

I (and others) will certainly point out when we disagree with one of your posts. And we will also point out when you are factually wrong. And, in all cases, it has nothing to do with hate, it has to do expressing our opinions and pointing out facts. And, most importantly, it really <B>is</B> about the players. However, if you keep avoiding questions and posting bad advice, it just shows it's only about <B>you</B>, right?

I'm on my 180th bag of popcorn regarding this thread....anyone have any Pepsi so I can wash it down? :D :D :p :p

What is with you and this rulebook? Give it a rest. I'm okay with whatever you think or believe about me and the rulebooks, plus I have already answered this question.

That is for you to figure out, however, I will leave you with this. I don't care whether you have a rulebook or not. I don't base my decision to like you or dislike you based on the fact that you have a rulebook or not. Now, who is BS'ing who?

I hate no one, but there must be something in the Kool-Aid around here when you think your actions, are beyond reproach, or better stated, your sh!it don't sink.

Disagreeing and having your own opinion on a subject is perfectly okay with me. Just don't turn it personal. Be about the topic and leave the personal innuendo's to the haters, but don't be surprised if you fire off a round at me, and I return the fire.

I am so sorry I missed that answer.

What was the answer again?

That's becoming more and more obvious with each post. :)

rules and citations arent opinions -- you are more wrong with rules than I am and your interpretations are really off as well -- there is not right or wrong when it comes to rules there is only right. you seem to miss that fact. you get rules wrong -- someone on here points that out -- you take that as a personal attack against your opinions. thats your problem not ours. as far as you owning a rulebook -- I dont care and I think I know the answer to it.

Sometimes we can be our own worse enemy's. There is no right or wrong when it comes to rules, there is only right! What the hell! We're talking about officiating basketball here, not building a rocket ship. Please show me where someone pointed out a rule to me and I took it personal, and I will point out to you where the hidden insult was everytime, because that is truly what you are missing. Like I said, you think your sh!t don't stink. In the real world, everybody's sh!t stinks.