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-   -   Would you have T ed ? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/32547-would-you-have-t-ed.html)

Daryl H. Long Tue Mar 13, 2007 02:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
What is with you and this rulebook? Give it a rest. I'm okay with whatever you think or believe about me and the rulebooks, plus I have already answered this question..

I read each post diligently and I never saw where you answered the question. If you will give me the courtesy of replying directly with a yes or no answer it would be appreciated.

My decision would be to T the coach. For that I cite the following NF Rules.

Rule 10-4-1a Disrespectfully addressing an official. I think this is quite evident and does not take into account the "emotional state" of the coach as to whether he has violated this rule or not. He just DID.

You could also argue that the coach has also violated Rules 10-4-1b,e,& f.

With me the rule book is my authority (Rule 4-39-1)for any action I employ to keep the game so neither team gets an unfair advantage (2005-2007 Officials manual pg4). The rule book say rules are created to create a balance of play (pg 10: The intent and purpose of rules).

Additionally in the 2nd paragraph on page 10 of the Rules book is states: Therefore it is important ot know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may be intelligently applied in each play situation.

I realize as officials we are called upon to offer interpretations of difficult plays but when giving mine I also show the authority to which I base my conclusions on AND give that authority due credit. By the way, I never consider Daryl H. Long to be the Authority nor do I ever give him credit.

My authority is the rule book pertinent to the level or code the game is being played under.

"T" or not? The authority supports my action in this sitch to say yes.

OS: other than your own gut feeling by what authority did you base your answer to say no to the "T"?

Old School Tue Mar 13, 2007 03:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl H. Long
My authority is the rule book pertinent to the level or code the game is being played under.

"T" or not? The authority supports my action in this sitch to say yes.

OS: other than your own gut feeling by what authority did you base your answer to say no to the "T"?
I already answered that Daryl. If you have read all the way to this point, you should certainly understand why I choose not to enforce the T. What authority can I attribute it too? My authority as the official for the game. It is my judgment, I reason it to be an emotional knee-jerk reaction from the coach and not meant as an attack on my integrity.

When the book talks about judgment and balance of fair play, and it also talks about its important to understand the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may be intelligently applied and/or called by the official. Most of the people out here say it's intelligent to immedately give the coach a T. I think I am the only one here that thinks it's intelligent to walk away so that I can not hear the coaches comment. Preventive officiating. To me, the integrity of a good game that I just got to work means more to me than the coaches kneejerk comments about his hurt player. To me, if these words upset you that much that you would enforce the T in a one-point game with 24 seconds left on the clock, imo, you are not ready to officiate upper level basketball. Maybe this field is not for you. Maybe you just don't have what it takes to succeed at this because I'm here to tell you, it gets much worse than that!

M&M Guy Tue Mar 13, 2007 03:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
What authority can I attribute it too? My authority as the official for the game.

To me, if these words upset you that much that you would enforce the T in a one-point game with 24 seconds left on the clock, imo, you are not ready to officiate upper level basketball. Maybe this field is not for you. Maybe you just don't have what it takes to succeed at this because I'm here to tell you, it gets much worse than that!
:D <font size = font size></font size>

JoeTheRef Tue Mar 13, 2007 03:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
I already answered that Daryl. If you have read all the way to this point, you should certainly understand why I choose not to enforce the T. What authority can I attribute it too? My authority as the official for the game. It is my judgment, I reason it to be an emotional knee-jerk reaction from the coach and not meant as an attack on my integrity.

When the book talks about judgment and balance of fair play, and it also talks about its important to understand the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may be intelligently applied and/or called by the official. Most of the people out here say it's intelligent to immedately give the coach a T. I think I am the only one here that thinks it's intelligent to walk away so that I can not hear the coaches comment. Preventive officiating. To me, the integrity of a good game that I just got to work means more to me than the coaches kneejerk comments about his hurt player. To me, if these words upset you that much that you would enforce the T in a one-point game with 24 seconds left on the clock, imo, you are not ready to officiate upper level basketball. Maybe this field is not for you. Maybe you just don't have what it takes to succeed at this because I'm here to tell you, it gets much worse than that!
OS, I'm sure there are going to be somebody if not many who will breakdown and comment on every sentence in your post, but I'm one to agree with you and your philosophy in this situation.

Daryl H. Long Tue Mar 13, 2007 04:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
I already answered that Daryl. If you have read all the way to this point, you should certainly understand why I choose not to enforce the T. What authority can I attribute it too? My authority as the official for the game. It is my judgment, I reason it to be an emotional knee-jerk reaction from the coach and not meant as an attack on my integrity.

When the book talks about judgment and balance of fair play, and it also talks about its important to understand the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may be intelligently applied and/or called by the official. Most of the people out here say it's intelligent to immedately give the coach a T. I think I am the only one here that thinks it's intelligent to walk away so that I can not hear the coaches comment. Preventive officiating. To me, the integrity of a good game that I just got to work means more to me than the coaches kneejerk comments about his hurt player.
I respect the part when you say you do not think it is an attack on your integrity. I am having a hard time comprehending why not. So far your defense for no "T" is 1.) he score of the game is close, 2.) you did not wish to penalize the kids for the actions of their coach, 3.) emotional outbursts by coaches are a part of the game and need to be ignored if we wish to advance to higher levels, or 4.) you did not think coach's comments attacked your integrity. At least those kept your reasoning within the realm of basketball. You lost your argument (not respect) with me when you first did not think how your lack of applying Rule 10-4-1a affects the other team and secondly you started to bring in outrageous analogies.

At question is the behavior of a individual involved in the game and we have pointed out rules that prohibit the very behavior in question. That most of the posters think it is intelligent to immediately give the "T" is not an anomoly of a local officials association. It represents the collective intelligence of many who base their decision on the authority not themselves. When the same decision is reached by those who are neither bound by geography nor level of officiating, that is the ultimate in integrity. And the integrity of the game is maintained by not depriving the other team from the chance to score points to win the game as a consequence of the other coach's actions.

I would be interested to know why you think the integrity of the game is maintained depriving the other team of merited free throws.

Old School Tue Mar 13, 2007 05:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl H. Long
At question is the behavior of a individual involved in the game and we have pointed out rules that prohibit the very behavior in question. That most of the posters think it is intelligent to immediately give the "T" is not an anomoly of a local officials association. It represents the collective intelligence of many who base their decision on the authority not themselves. When the same decision is reached by those who are neither bound by geography nor level of officiating, that is the ultimate in integrity. And the integrity of the game is maintained by not depriving the other team from the chance to score points to win the game as a consequence of the other coach's actions.
That's bringing BS into the game. If you are worried about rewarding the team extra F/T's so that they have more chances to score because this coach shouldn't have said that to you. I am deeply concerned about your integrity as an official, because that is truly the farest thing from my mind in that situation. I'm thinking about the act, my part in this act (questionable play, player hurt) and how that relates to what has transpired to this point in the game. My focus is on the game which is where it should be. I don't think about nothing like that until after the game. I'm never going to base a decision to reward a technical or not on the fact that this team should get to score more. That's unethical, imo.

Alright, it appears you have the same problem as the others. You been drinking that Kool-Aid and we have pretty much comfirmed that there is something in the Kool-Aid around here. Okay, I need you to sit down, relax, take a deep breath and repeat after me.

It's not all about me,
again, it's not all about me,
one more time,
it's not all about me.
It's about the players,
it's about the game,
but it's not about me.

Daryl H. Long Tue Mar 13, 2007 05:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
To me, if these words upset you that much that you would enforce the T in a one-point game with 24 seconds left on the clock, imo, you are not ready to officiate upper level basketball. Maybe this field is not for you. Maybe you just don't have what it takes to succeed at this because I'm here to tell you, it gets much worse than that!
So far my posts on this thread have only disagreed with your position and are devoid of any personal attacks that you took offense to in posts before I chimed in. I gave you no reason to make the above statement nor the Kool-ade comment later.

FYI:
26 years total experience.
25 years officiating at college level.
3 years as an alternate in the BIG 10 assigned to the University of Michigan before they went to 3 officials.
20 years as a Div 1 evaluator and scout.
10 years officiating AAU, YBOA, and AYBT National Championships.

In ALL the conferences in which I officiated/scouted/evaluated the officials were required to take care of coach's behavior such as mentioned in this sitch and were supported by supervisors.

Coaches behavior in youth games is far worse than any collegiate game I have ever been involved with. If fact at the youth National Championships coaches are amazed at the number of "T's" received by themselves during the tournament. Why? Because most of the officials have collegiate experience and do not hesitate to enforce bench decorum.

Jurassic Referee Tue Mar 13, 2007 06:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl H. Long
So far my posts on this thread have only disagreed with your position and are devoid of any personal attacks that you took offense to in posts before I chimed in. I gave you no reason to make the above statement nor the Kool-ade comment later.
It's now official. Old School can piss off a Preacher.:D

Adam Tue Mar 13, 2007 06:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
Maybe you just don't have what it takes to succeed at this because I'm here to tell you, it gets much worse than that!
Without regard to your unprovoked personal attack on Daryl, I have to add something here.
It only gets worse than that when you let it. As I said before, coaches are able to control themselves when you tell them they need to. The comments in the OP aren't an emotional reaction; they're a calculated personal statement designed to make a point. Furthermore, they are unsportsmanlike, and deserve an easy T. Do it "quietly" if you like, but call the T.

jkjenning Tue Mar 13, 2007 08:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
What is with you and this rulebook?
2006-07 NFHS Basketball Rules, please quote the last line on page 39. That should at least demonstrate access to a rulebook, which you have not yet done.

Old School Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl H. Long
So far my posts on this thread have only disagreed with your position and are devoid of any personal attacks that you took offense to in posts before I chimed in. I gave you no reason to make the above statement nor the Kool-ade comment later.
Daryl, don't be so sensitive. I have not attacked you personally, just a little good nature, old fun teasing. As officials, we can't be that sensitive on the surface. When you are, you make it all about you. Plus, you can't come into this den a saint. Too much bad blood has already been spilled. If you want to wrestle with the lions, you're going to get some blood on you. Snaqs says my comments was unprovoked. Daryl, you provoked me the minute you challenge my position, but I am not mad at you, nor would I give you a technical for it. That's the different between me and you. You are upset while I'm laughing inside. So I say to the coach, you going to have to do more than that if you want to get a response out of me. Otherwise, I'm going over here to talk to my partner about how we are going to call the last 24 seconds of this game.

It is a pleasure to meet you Mr. Daryl H. Long. I am humbled and honored by your accomplishments and do respect your position and opinion on this topic. Thanks for chimming in.

Adam Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
Daryl, don't be so sensitive. I have not attacked you personally, just a little good nature, old fun teasing.
There are requirements for this that you don't meet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
Snaqs says my comments was unprovoked. Daryl, you provoked me the minute you challenge my position,
So questioning your position is considered provokation for a personal attack? Speaks volumes....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
So I say to the coach, you going to have to do more than that if you want to get a response out of me. Otherwise, I'm going over here to talk to my partner about how we are going to call the last 24 seconds of the game.
Don't say a word to the coach. Call the T, report the T, and when the injured player is removed from the court, shoot the freethrows.

jkjenning Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
What is with you and this rulebook?
You really should go away. :(

deecee Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
Daryl, don't be so sensitive. I have not attacked you personally, just a little good nature, old fun teasing. As officials, we can't be that sensitive on the surface. When you are, you make it all about you. Plus, you can't come into this den a saint. Too much bad blood has already been spilled. If you want to wrestle with the lions, you're going to get some blood on you. Snaqs says my comments was unprovoked. Daryl, you provoked me the minute you challenge my position, but I am not mad at you, nor would I give you a technical for it. That's the different between me and you. You are upset while I'm laughing inside. So I say to the coach, you going to have to do more than that if you want to get a response out of me. Otherwise, I'm going over here to talk to my partner about how we are going to call the last 24 seconds of the game.

It is a pleasure to meet you. I am humbled and honored by your accomplishments and do respect your position and opinion on this topic. Thanks for chimming in.
One of OS's top 10 -- the imagery he draws with his words are Orwellian at worst...

ChrisSportsFan Wed Mar 14, 2007 01:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
Now, we have to think about how we define "real official." If it's just someone who owns a striped shirt, whistle, and black shorts, then it doesn't matter.

If it is someone who actually belongs to an organization of officials (peers who train and teach and hold each other accountable), who studies the rules in an effort to better understand them and to better apply them to games, and who actually cares about the game itself instead of the check; well, then let's just say there are quite a few refs that don't qualify.

I'm certain that M&M, however, does qualify.
As one who has witnessed M&M officiate, I can vouch for his realness.

M&M Guy Wed Mar 14, 2007 02:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisSportsFan
As one who has witnessed M&M officiate, I can vouch for his realness.
Whew, thanks Chris.

After reading OS's posts, I was wondering if I was just a figment of my imagination. :D

Scrapper1 Wed Mar 14, 2007 02:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkjenning
You really should go away. :(
In the words of Monday Night Football's Tony Kornheiser: "He gots to go. He gots to go!!"

Philz Wed Mar 14, 2007 02:46pm
WOW! I cant believe the response I got from this. This is the first time I got a chance to check it out since I posted it....guess I've been working too many games (48 games since 1 feb 07). I think oldschool is the only one that kinda understood what I felt at the time. I know all about integrity of the game and so on and even when I talked to my ref buddies most said I should have "T" ed him, But if you saw one of my replies I also mentioned I played and coached also and have said stuff out of frustration regerting what I said and Oldschool caught that part. He also caught the part on how I mentioned the game went great up to that point, close all the way, no complaints just a good close clean game (local championship) and I just couldnt see firering up the whole gym ( at least 300 people) with a few seconds left when it was something between me and the coach and only a couple people may have heard. I will say it did piss me off like no other comment all year. But when I went home, grab a beer and jumped in my hot tub I felt good about it but woundered what other Refs would have done. By the way I'm not that new a Ref. I've been Officiating for 10 years, mostly Armed Forces adult and youth Rec leagues as its all I had a chance to do since I was in the military for 22 years, I just started NJBL this year and loved it. I got selected to do the district championship last sunday ( 3 man, that was cool) and would love to do High School again (only did 1 year) and college would be a dream. Learned more this year then any and alot from this forum....thanks

Raymond Wed Mar 14, 2007 02:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philz
I think oldschool is the only one that kinda understood what I felt at the time. I know all about integrity of the game and so on and even when I talked to my ref buddies most said I should have "T" ed him,
Yikes! :eek: We'll try not to hold that against you. :D

M&M Guy Wed Mar 14, 2007 03:12pm
Philz - if you've been around this forum long enough you would start to doubt yourself even more if Old School agrees with you... ;)

Let me ask you this about the original post: let's say in your game, instead of the coach coming out and doing his thing, sub A6 has to come in for A1 because A1 twisted their ankle on the play. 24 sec. left, A is down by one. A6 gets the ball, and does an obvious travel, because they hadn't been in the game before this. Does this thought cross your mind: "Maybe I should let this travel go, because all the other A players played their hearts out this game, and it would be a shame to let this one player cost them the game"? I would hope you don't call the game this way. You should call the travel and move on. It is exactly the same with the coach's actions. You make the call, and move on. The coach's actions cost the team the game, not your call. Granted, you felt yourself getting emotional, and it is a good thing to try and keep emotions from getting in the way of the calls. But if the coach crosses the line, it's his fault for costing his players.

I've figured out that if I leave a game wondering if I should've given a "T", then I should have given it. I have never left a game wondering if I should not have issued a T when I have.

Adam Wed Mar 14, 2007 04:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philz
But if you saw one of my replies I also mentioned I played and coached also and have said stuff out of frustration
Just because you said similar things when you were playing or coaching doesn't make them ok. Asking a ref if he has something against a particular kid, or even his team, is questioning his integrity. It's not a comment made out of frustration; it's calculated, IMO. I caught that part, I just don't think it's relevant. I used to travel every now and then when I played, but I still call it now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philz
He also caught the part on how I mentioned the game went great up to that point, close all the way, no complaints just a good close clean game (local championship) and I just couldnt see firering up the whole gym ( at least 300 people) with a few seconds left when it was something between me and the coach and only a couple people may have heard. I will say it did piss me off like no other comment all year.
Again, it's not relevant. IMO, his comments here earned the T regardless of what had transpired before. Being nice to you all game doesn't give them a license to go over the line.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philz
But when I went home, grab a beer and jumped in my hot tub I felt good about it but woundered what other Refs would have done.
99% of us would call the T. :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philz
By the way I'm not that new a Ref. I've been Officiating for 10 years, mostly Armed Forces adult and youth Rec leagues as its all I had a chance to do since I was in the military for 22 years, I just started NJBL this year and loved it. I got selected to do the district championship last sunday ( 3 man, that was cool) and would love to do High School again (only did 1 year) and college would be a dream. Learned more this year then any and alot from this forum....thanks
Welcome to the forum.

Jurassic Referee Wed Mar 14, 2007 04:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
99% of us would call the T.
Jmo, but I think that very few officials wouldn't call the "T". And I hate to say it it, but those few that wouldn't are the ones that are afraid of "firing up the whole gym".

tmp44 Wed Mar 14, 2007 04:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef
Yikes! :eek: We'll try not to hold that against you. :D
Maybe Philz is OS??? :0

Philz Wed Mar 14, 2007 05:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
Philz - if you've been around this forum long enough you would start to doubt yourself even more if Old School agrees with you... ;)

Let me ask you this about the original post: let's say in your game, instead of the coach coming out and doing his thing, sub A6 has to come in for A1 because A1 twisted their ankle on the play. 24 sec. left, A is down by one. A6 gets the ball, and does an obvious travel, because they hadn't been in the game before this. Does this thought cross your mind: "Maybe I should let this travel go, because all the other A players played their hearts out this game, and it would be a shame to let this one player cost them the game"? I would hope you don't call the game this way. You should call the travel and move on. It is exactly the same with the coach's actions. You make the call, and move on. The coach's actions cost the team the game, not your call. Granted, you felt yourself getting emotional, and it is a good thing to try and keep emotions from getting in the way of the calls. But if the coach crosses the line, it's his fault for costing his players.

I've figured out that if I leave a game wondering if I should've given a "T", then I should have given it. I have never left a game wondering if I should not have issued a T when I have.
I disagree with you comparing a Travel with a "T". A "T" I feel is more of a tool to maintain control of the game on mostly the sportsmanship side although I know its use for other things like player number not in the book and so forth but used most the time to punish unsportsman like behavior. Yes he was unsportsman like for sure but I know when he said it he wasnt thinking (I know he knows I dont know that kid and wouldnt have something agaist him) its just what came out of his mouth. I felt the kids should decide the outcome of that game not the coach and me feeling like I needed to "T" him because I'm a ref and no ones going to talk to me and get away with it. That seems to be what I see a lot in these replies. I Ref and umpire with a few guys with the nobodys going to give me any S**T attitudes and I think thats wrong and maybe I get more S**T from people because they know I'll take it but the game not about you and I believe if you walk off the court without the ref being a factor in the game then you did your job. I'm not saying you need to take a lot of crap and if you read one of my replies I mentioned I called more Techs than I can remember this year and even have tossed 3 people out this year but there are certain times when you suck it up and take one for the benifit of the game and I feel I did that with no regrets I dont care how many refs tell me they would have "T" em. And to compare that to a obvious travel is stupid.

Adam Wed Mar 14, 2007 06:13pm
You didn't take one for the benefit of the game. The game took one for your benefit, no matter how you justify it.

Philz Wed Mar 14, 2007 06:16pm
One more thing M&M since you compared me not calling a "T" to and obvious travel. Sit down and watch any Div 1 or NBA game and count how many obvious travels that dont get called. If you compare that to me not calling that one "T" then I'm still way ahead of the best refs in the world by your comparison.

M&M Guy Wed Mar 14, 2007 06:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philz
...used most the time to punish unsportsman like behavior. Yes he was unsportsman like for sure...
This is what sums it up. You say the coach was unsprortsmanlike, but you didn't punish it according to the rules. You didn't make the call. It's no different than not making the traveling call. You did, in effect, help decide the outcome by <B>not</B> making the call.

Believe me, I used to think exactly as you do - let the kids decide the game, not the coaches. But, coaches do help decide games - they request TO's in strategic places, they call the offensive and defensive sets, they decide when certain players come into the game based on situations, and many more. If you truly believe coaches shouldn't affect the outcome of games, then they should be banned from the benches entirely. Only the kids should be there, right? You know that's not the case. So if you look at it realistically, coaches have just as much responsibility for the outcome as the players; therefore they should be held to the same standards of behavior.

As I've gotten older, I've realized the T is just another call, just like traveling. There is still some judgement as to what warrents the T, just like there is judgement in whether the pivot foot was lifted before the dribble was started. As we become more experienced, we miss less of both.

Jurassic Referee Wed Mar 14, 2007 07:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philz
<font color = red> A "T" I feel is more of a tool to maintain control of the game on mostly the sportsmanship side</font> although I know its use for other things like player number not in the book and so forth but <font color = red>used most the time to punish unsportsman like behavior. Yes he was unsportsman like for sure</font> but I know when he said it he wasnt thinking (I know he knows I dont know that kid and wouldnt have something agaist him) its just what came out of his mouth.

<font color = red> I dont care how many refs tell me they would have "T" em</font>. And to compare that to a obvious travel is stupid.
If you don't care how many refs tell you that they would call a "T", then why did you ask us in the first place? :confused:

And doesn't the fact that basically nobody but Old School agreed with you tell you something?

Read what you wrote above. You state that a "T" is used to punish unsportsmanlike behavior. You also state that the coach's behavior was unsportsmanlike for sure. Yet you absolutely refused to punish him. And then to try and excuse your failure to take care of bidness you now start spouting nonsense like "the good of the game" and "the kids should decide the outcome of the game" and "don't want to be a factor in the game" and "suck it up and take one for the benefit of the game". All of those are nothing but very weak excuses for not doing what you're supposed to be doing as an official. Methinks you should go back to being a coach, Philz. You're just too nice a guy to ever be an official at the high school level or higher.

Remember, you asked for opinions, Philz. There's never any guarantees that you're gonna like the opinions that you hear.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Wed Mar 14, 2007 09:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
You got quite a few opinions out here on this, and they are varied and all correct. However, I commend you for "not" giving the T in this situation because of what you stated; you had a great game, and for the betterment of the game, you took one. Hooray for you, this is good officiating and the rest of the people out here should take note. You took one for the home team, the referees. We reward sacrifices like this in the armed forces with a metal of honor. You've earned one today, at least imo, you did. You could have blasted him and been correct in your call, however, IMO, the only thing you would have proven is that it's all about you. You took it personal and it was not meant as a personal attack on your character as an official. It was an emotional outburst from a coach who was into it, as he should be. Add on to that an injured player in a very close game that he was one point behind in, and he needed something called in his favor at that point in time, which he didn't get. His timing for saying this was not good, however, you proved to be the bigger man this day and ignored it for what it was, an emotional, not well thought out outburst. What you did cannot be learned from reading a rulebook, but I can tell you with certainly, that this is what true officiating is all about. Being able to separate yourself from the emotion of the game and dealing with the game not as a controller, dominate person with a chip on his shoulder, but a participant in the game with responsibilities to the game. In certain situation there are times when the rule makers want us to apply judgment instead of the rule of law and it's really hard to explain judgment (when is enough enough) but I thought your judgment here was outstanding.

For the next time, when you blow the play dead and beckon for the coach, you should be walking the other way like the others here have suggested. In fact, this is a good time to go talk with your partner, head the furthest away from the coach, IOW, don't go walk by the coach or the bench. Go talk to your partner about the last 24 seconds of the game, how many TO's is left, anybody in the bonus, last sec. shot, etc. Just giving you something to think about to go do. Since the kid is standing there hurt, you ain't putting that ball in right away so no need to stand there getting ready to hand the ball to Team B. This gets you and the coach out of harms way. I call it preventative officiating, even if it's in reverse. My point is, you can't call a T on something you didn't hear.;)

My opinion, based on what the coach stated is not T worthy. Now, if he laced that comment with a few swear words, yea, you're getting it. However, I know exactly what you mean when you say those words bothered you. Welcome to officiating. Had a similar thing happened last night in a wreck league. Had to have a few afterwards to calm myself down before going home.

Old School:

He had a great game up until the moment he did not whack the coach. At the level I officiate and many of the other officials on this board officiate at, if you do not take care of business, you will not be around to take care of business another time.

MTD, Sr.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Wed Mar 14, 2007 09:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
You just prove my point. You need to get out more. Did you forget about Bobby Knight?

If you would have blasted a T at the precise moment the coach made that comment to you, like the OP almost did but caught himself. That would have been an emotional T. You reacted to his comment the exact same way he reacted to the play. Both actions, not well thought out, imho.

A wise man once said; two wrongs don't make a right, and you can't fight fire with fire unless you won't to burn everything down.

Old School:

The coach in this thread went ballistic. I would have unemotionally WHACKED him.

MTD, Sr.

Back In The Saddle Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
You are upset while I'm laughing inside.
I have purposely never responded to Toad Stool. You know what they say about wrestling with pigs.

I appreciate that some, perhaps even most, of you engage him only so that other, less experienced officials don't accidentally believe this buffoon's "advice" is useful.

But I think that in his response to the preacher, he has finally given us an honest glimpse into the man behind the buffoon. Toad Stool is nothing more than a pot stirrer. He doesn't care about officiating. He's only here to amuse himself by getting us worked up. Don't give him the satisfaction.

Old School Thu Mar 15, 2007 08:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Jmo, but I think that very few officials wouldn't call the "T". And I hate to say it it, but those few that wouldn't are the ones that are afraid of "firing up the whole gym".
Afraid or smart? Again, you need to get out more. It's not all about you or the rulebook.

Old School Thu Mar 15, 2007 09:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
If you don't care how many refs tell you that they would call a "T", then why did you ask us in the first place? :confused:
To gain some knowledge you moron. Repeat after me, it's not all about me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
And doesn't the fact that basically nobody but Old School agreed with you tell you something?
Yea, it tells him that I am the only one out here that uses common sense. Everyone else is stuck in it's all about me mode. Thank god you are not a cop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Read what you wrote above. You state that a "T" is used to punish unsportsmanlike behavior. You also state that the coach's behavior was unsportsmanlike for sure. Yet you absolutely refused to punish him.
That is not true, that is you putting your spin on it. He did not absolutely refuse, he thought about, weighed his options and made a practical logical strategic (to the game) decision not to blow him out the water. You may not agree with the decision, lord knows I did not agree with Bush decision to invade IRAQ, but I respect the fact that it's his decision to make.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
And then to try and excuse your failure to take care of bidness you now start spouting nonsense like "the good of the game" and "the kids should decide the outcome of the game" and "don't want to be a factor in the game" and "suck it up and take one for the benefit of the game". All of those are nothing but very weak excuses for not doing what you're supposed to be doing as an official. Methinks you should go back to being a coach, Philz. You're just too nice a guy to ever be an official at the high school level or higher.
I can not believe you said that. You should be band from this board for this comment. Doing something for the good of the game is nonsense!!!! Now I know you're been drinking too much of that kool-aid. If this offends you, you need to check yourself in. I'm serious man, you need to turn in your referee license because I sure as hell don't want you working with no kids.

Jurassic Referee Thu Mar 15, 2007 09:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
To gain some knowledge you moron.
Yabut.....if he refuses to actually <b>use</b> that knowledge, that would make him...well....<b>you</b>!

Btw, "moron" again? Tsk, tsk, tsk.........

Old School Thu Mar 15, 2007 09:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Yabut.....if he refuses to actually <b>use</b> that knowledge, that would make him...well....<b>you</b>!
He didn't refuse. That's your problem. He laid everything out on the table and then made a decision. I know I have said this before but you and the others have a one-track, one way fits all mentally. People who take into consideration everything, are the best leaders, the best decision makers, the best ball players, the best coaches, the best in academincs, and yes, the best officials. Give you a real live example: Let's say you are the best shooter on the team. That's what you do, game on the line, one point game, you got the ball, you're looking to shoot, you shoot, two people on you, you miss, game over. The player that takes everything into consideration, sees that 1.) the game is on the line, 2.) we need a good shot to win the game, 3.) I'm double covered, 4.) looks for open teammate 5.) baits the defense into thinking he's going to shoot and 6.) passes ball to open teammate for the win, 7.) still gets the MVP because he made the pass, the decision, that helped his team to win the game.


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