Line up for new subs

[heyref32]

Situation, Team A subs in three or more subs. After Team A subs have legally entered game Team B coach requests a line up. Do you grant the request? Can either team's coach request a line up? Does it have to be on three or more subs or can request be made on any number of subs. I believe this was in the rulebook 98-99? and then taken out, no reason given. Can references in rulebook be given if any. Thanks.

[heyref32]

This refers to NFHS.

[RookieDude]

In my time of officiating, I have never had a coach abuse this "privledge".

If the coach wants a line up...give him/her a line up.

Why alienate the coach, by not letting the kids know who they are guarding, by something as simple as a line up?

Just a Rookie thought.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Due to the time of the evening I am not going to go thru my rule books (mine go back to the 1971-72 season, my first year of officiating), but whenever team substitutes three or more players either team can request a jump ball line up at center court for purposes finding an opponent to guard. A team is not limited to the number of times a game that the request can be made, just that anytime one team substitutes three or more players. This applies to both NFHS and NCAA rules. This is not a "privlege" but a procedure that is allowed by rule.

[Kelvin green]

I have reffed for a long time and never seen a line-up. Its not prohibitied by current rule and it is not authorized either. Personally, unless it was about 3-5th grade ball I'm not going to allow it. It would delay the game, and I think could give a team an unfair advantage by slowing down, changing momentum, etc. My response NO WAY!

[Mark Dexter]

What is a line-up, how does it work, and why would a coach want one?

[JRutledge]

This sounds more like a baseball question. Why would a coach not already have a lineup? Am I missing something?

[BktBallRef]

By rule, if a coach substitues 3 or more players, he may request a jump ball type lineup to determine which players are guarding which opponents. However, without explanation, the rule was deleted from the rule book last year. No one seems to know why.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
By rule, if a coach substitues 3 or more players, he may request a jump ball type lineup to determine which players are guarding which opponents. However, without explanation, the rule was deleted from the rule book last year. No one seems to know why.

Then my question is where in the rulebook? Then I would like to know who does the coach make the request to, the official or the scorer?

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by JRutledge

Then my question is where in the rulebook? Then I would like to know who does the coach make the request to, the official or the scorer?

Question #1 - 3-3-2 prior to last year.

Question #2 - The captain.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Nov 24th, 2001 at 09:06 PM]

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

The rule was not deleted from the NFHS 2000-01 Rules Book. What was removed from the Rules Book was the Question and Answer in R3-S3-A2.

Question: Following substitutions, should the official line up players to aid them in locating opponents?

Answer: This shall be done at the request of a captain when three or more substitutes for the same team enter during an opportunity to substitute.

Questions and answers within the Rules Book are nothing more than Case Book Plays/Rules Interpretaions that are placed within the Rules. Case Book Plays are routinely removed from the Case Book to make room for others, but this does not mean the Case Book Play is no longer in effect. The only way for a Case Book Play to become null and void is for the Rule to which it applies, to be changed subsequent to it being removed from the Case Book. The same goes for a Q/A that is removed from the Rules Book.

If the Rules Committee wants to change the Ruling in a Q/A when the Rule that applies to the Q/A has not changed, then it would stand to reason that either the Q/A would be changed in the Rules Book, or the Q/A is removed from the Rules Book and an editorial comment would be included in the Rules Book (and a Case Book Play could be added).

The Q/A for the play in this posting is still in effect.

[BktBallRef]

Whether it's a rule or a Q&A is not the point. The point is that it was removed from the rule book. Now, there's nothing in the rule or case book that states that it can be done. That makes it difficult for officials coming into the avocation and not being able to reference such information.

[Kelvin green]

Mark, help me out
What NF rules book are you using that has Q&A. The one I have doesnt have anything like that in it.

I can find no reference to the rule or the Q&A that you are quoting.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Kelvin Green: If you read the NFHS/NCAA Rules Books you will see EXCEPTIONS and NOTES sprinkled through the Rules Books. In past years there were also QUESTIONS/ANSWERS in various places in these books. These Q/A's have been romoved from the Rules Books, but that does not mean their rulings are null void. It is a shame that they were removed because they were an essentional part of the rules interpretation process.

BdtBallRef: I know that when Q/A's and Case Book Plays are removed, it can make it difficult for newer officials. And the NFHS, NCAA and FIBA need to improve the availability of all relevant information regarding the rules, rules intepretations, and mechanics and the changes made to them over the years. That is why officials have to take advantage of all forms of information that are available to them to stay abreast of the rules.


The original posting is correct, the 1998-99 NFHS Rules Book was the last Rules Book that included the Q/A referred to in the original posting. And I want to reiterate that just because a Q/A was removed from the Rules Book or a Case Book Play was removed from the Case Book, the Ruling is not null and void unless subsequent rule changes would change the ruling or the Rules Committee issues a new interpretation of the Q/A or Case Book Play in question.


To sum things up for the original posting: Yes, the captain of either team can request a jump ball line up when either team substitutes three or more players at one time. This jump ball line up is for the purpose of locating opponents.

[Kelvin green]

Although I can see where you are coming from...

I will have to disagree slightly. If it's not in the rule boo or casebook, then it just isnt so, unless you use the elastic powers of the referee. Interpretations change. Rule Books change. No one would expect anyone to remember what was in the 1998-1999 Rule Book.

The current Rule Book are the official rule books.
The case book is an "official supplement"
The Simplified Book refers one to the rule book or case book for "technicalities" and
NF does issue Official interpretations on web site etc an will incorporate them into the case book.

I dont keep old rule books around and a lot of officials dont. I dont keep my books around for that very purpose. I dont want to be confused from the previous year to the next. I would suggest that if The committee removes something from the rules then it was not necessary or the committee did not want it there for the future. I for one will not go back and try to second guess the rules committee.

Newer officials must only rely on the books published. I have been official long enough to see rules change quite a bit, and if we rely on stuff from the past we maybe placing ourselves in jeopardy of not staying with current rules.

When an organization publish new rules, they generally supercede the old ones. The only Rules that are official are the ones in the current book. If the NF thinks that an intrerpretation is important enough it will be in the case book for new officials. This is not the legal profession where coomon law precedent plays a key role in the interpretation of new rules. Even in law when new rules are published or Congress passes new legislation, much of the precedent is overturned.

I will rely on the current book and casebooks, and here is why...
You are in a rivalry game, hotly contested, and it's close. A is down by one points and only has four team fouls, and it out of timeouts. The coach needs time to set up his press so he tells one of his players to foul, stoppoing the clock, and sends three subs in and in doing so requests a lineup. This stops the game, matches up players, allows them to immediately get on their man in he name of a line-up, and completely set up the press. A staels the ball and goes up one. Coach B complains that youlet them line up, delaying the game and setting up the press. He knows the rules and tells you it's not in the rules! and then you reply it was in the 1997-1998 rule book but has since been taken out but that you know it is still official (although it does not appear in any current NF publication) The coach complains to the State or your own association about allowing something not permitted by rule.
Your only defense, if it's not specifically prohibited then it must be allowed, because I would not want to tell someone well it was in an old book, and i dot think the committee meant to change it.