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-   -   Two HS questions (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/32319-two-hs-questions.html)

IREFU2 Wed Feb 28, 2007 04:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjones1
Oh but it is, it's in the case book.

Here's how the ruling reads: (4.19.8 Situation C, page 28/29)

Even though air-borne shooter A1 committed a charging foul, it is not a player-control foul becasue the two fouls result in a double personal foul. The double foul does not cause the ball to become dead on the try and the goal is scored. Play is resumed at the point of interruption, which is a throw-in for Team B from anywhere along the end line.
My bad, but you dont go to the AP>

tjones1 Wed Feb 28, 2007 04:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by IREFU2
My bad, but you dont go to the AP>
In your situation you wouldn't go AP because there was team control. Give the ball back to the offensive team.

In the OP, it wasn't described if there was TC or not. Therefore, JRut and I answered they handled it correctly provided there was no team control.

Adam Wed Feb 28, 2007 04:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by IREFU2
My bad, but you dont go to the AP>
There's only one reason to go AP in this play. If the shot was released before contact, but was unsuccessful. Then you have no team control so you have to go AP.

Splute Wed Feb 28, 2007 04:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjones1
Oh but it is, it's in the case book.

Here's how the ruling reads: (4.19.8 Situation C, page 28/29)

Even though air-borne shooter A1 committed a charging foul, it is not a player-control foul becasue the two fouls result in a double personal foul. The double foul does not cause the ball to become dead on the try and the goal is scored. Play is resumed at the point of interruption, which is a throw-in for Team B from anywhere along the end line.
Thanks for typing this out. I do not have access to my books right now and it was driving me crazy. I remembered the double foul cancelling the PC, but somewhere I missed the double call by officials being a double foul.

tjones1 Wed Feb 28, 2007 05:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splute
Thanks for typing this out. I do not have access to my books right now and it was driving me crazy. I remembered the double foul cancelling the PC, but somewhere I missed the double call by officials being a double foul.
You're welcome, not a problem.

Mountaineer Wed Feb 28, 2007 06:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splute
How can you have a double foul on a single incident? It seems it would be one call or the other. Wouldnt the closest Ump or the Ref make the final call?
IMO, this is always caused by poor communication. In a game that I'm involved - during pregame - I make sure to say to yeild to the primary on a double whistle. If I'm involved in a double whistle the first thing I do is look at my partner - if it's his I drop my hand and nod - if it's mine, I take my left hand and touch my chest to signal I have it. The problem is that some guys crack the whistle on a crash like this and want to realy SELL the call and don't pay any attention to their partner. A blarge is never fun - but at least it's specifically dealt with in the rule book now.

Nevadaref Wed Feb 28, 2007 06:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountaineer
A blarge is never fun - but at least it's specifically dealt with in the rule book now.
Did you think that it wasn't before? It's not new. I have kept my books since 2001-02 and this same case play is in there. I'm sure that someone else can confirm that it goes back even earlier.

Mountaineer Wed Feb 28, 2007 07:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Did you think that it wasn't before? It's not new. I have kept my books since 2001-02 and this same case play is in there. I'm sure that someone else can confirm that it goes back even earlier.
You are right - I don't know what I'm thinking. They did change it though. I think when they added the team control foul thing. It used to be never count the bucket - now you do in certain situations. And the POI was something else that wasn't in the book.

I claim insanity . . . of course in my defense, now as opposed to 15 years ago - I'm still right!:p (well, maybe!)

Nevadaref Wed Feb 28, 2007 08:16pm
You are correct that team control fouls and POI are recent additions to the NFHS rules coming in with the 2005-06 season. However, the player control cancels a goal and the a double foul allows it to count rules have been around for quite awhile. I don't know the exact years, but it is more than 10.

Mark Padgett Wed Feb 28, 2007 08:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Did you think that it wasn't before? It's not new. I have kept my books since 2001-02 and this same case play is in there. I'm sure that someone else can confirm that it goes back even earlier.
It's in my 1914 book - the one I bought personally from Dr. Naismith.

Back In The Saddle Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Padgett
It's in my 1914 book - the one I bought personally from Dr. Naismith.
I thought they were still using the original 13 rules back then. :confused:

BTW, does MTD still have the original poster? I thought it was revealed a couple years ago that he had it. :D

TRef21 Thu Mar 01, 2007 01:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hough7865
Hey all,

I coach a middle school team, and my brother is in high school, and I was watching one of his games this year and two situations happened and I wanted to know if what the officials did was correct. High School rules please...

1) I think this is what people call a BLARGE [sp?]. Three officials on the game, and there is a collision in the paint. One official called it a charge, the other a block. They gave both players a foul, called a double foul, and went with the arrow....is this correct?

2) Different game, a player on the other team got blood on his jersey. The officials let him take the jersey of a player, in the book, sitting on the bench. Is this allowed? What happens to the other player? What if they get the bloody jersey clean...can the original player use it again, and can the other player put his original jersey back on?

Thanks!
1. The ruling is correct. You have a double foul where both fouls are reported and plays is resumed with the AP. If the player scores the basket is wiped because of the player control foul.

Nevadaref Thu Mar 01, 2007 01:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRef21
1. The ruling is correct. You have a double foul where both fouls are reported and plays is resumed with the AP. If the player scores the basket is wiped because of the player control foul.
Nope, your ruling is incorrect. Play is resumed with the POI rule, not the AP, and if the try is successful the goal is scored as this is a double foul, not a player control foul.

Per this NFHS casebook play which was already cited above by Tanner:

4.19.8 SITUATION C: A1 drives for a try and jumps and releases the ball. Contact occurs between A1 and B1 after the release and before airborne shooter A1 returns to the floor. One official calls a blocking foul on B1 and the other official calls a charging foul on A1. The try is successful. RULING: Even though airborne shooter A1 committed a charging foul, it is not a player-control foul because the two fouls result in a double personal foul. The double foul does not cause the ball to become dead on the try and the goal is scored. Play is resumed at the point of interruption, which is a throw-in for Team B from anywhere along the end line. (4-36)

TRef21 Thu Mar 01, 2007 02:41am
opps! I'm sorry. if he misses AP arrow. I didn't read it correctly. I feel like an idiot.

Good looking out

Johnny Ringo Thu Mar 01, 2007 03:50pm
Regading situation #1 - how many officials have had this happen while working a game?


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