Two HS questions
 

Hey all,

I coach a middle school team, and my brother is in high school, and I was watching one of his games this year and two situations happened and I wanted to know if what the officials did was correct. High School rules please...

1) I think this is what people call a BLARGE [sp?]. Three officials on the game, and there is a collision in the paint. One official called it a charge, the other a block. They gave both players a foul, called a double foul, and went with the arrow....is this correct?

2) Different game, a player on the other team got blood on his jersey. The officials let him take the jersey of a player, in the book, sitting on the bench. Is this allowed? What happens to the other player? What if they get the bloody jersey clean...can the original player use it again, and can the other player put his original jersey back on?

Thanks!

1) Yes, provided there was no team control.

2) Yes, it's allowed. Interesting question, I suppose it would be possible if it was early enough in the game and they washed the jersey really quick. According to the comment in 3.3.6, I think it would be allowed for the player giving up his jersey to wear the jersey that was bloody.

You go to the arrow only if their is no possession by a player/team. You go to the point of interruption if there was possession of the ball by a player/team.

Yes this is allowed. If you cannot take care of the blood, a player is allowed to change jerseys with someone that has not played. I do not know about going back to the old jersey, I am not sure the rules cover this specifically, but the idea is to not keep a player completely out just because blood is on the jersey. It might not be their blood that is on their jersey.

Peace

How can you have a double foul on a single incident? It seems it would be one call or the other. Wouldnt the closest Ump or the Ref make the final call?

If a player is going for a try which initiates the Charge / block call, then there must be team control.

Regarding #1. Was there a shot involved. If it was released before contact, then they would go with the arrow, unless the basket went in. If it wasn't released before the fouls, they would give the ball back to the offense.

Some say, philosophically, that it's not possible. However, the NFHS rules state that when two officials both give opposite signals, they're supposed to go with a double foul.
If the shot is in the air before contact, there is no team control.

[quote=Snaqwells]Some say, philosophically, that it's not possible. However, the NFHS rules state that when two officials both give opposite signals, they're supposed to go with a double foul.

Okay, I have missed that in my reading. Back to the books.:rolleyes:

#2...can of worms...players are not allowed to remove their shirts, even for blood, in the bench area. (I think there is a case book reference to this). They need to go to a locker room, or out of sight of the court to change, I believe.

And as tjones and JRut said, I believe the intent is to let them play. The number is changed in the scorebook without penalty.

This is exactly what I was thinking. They need to leave the gym to change.

See 4.19.8 Situation C and you've got it.

Um, that is a double foul which means you go to the point of interuption, not the arrow. The charge is a player control foul.

Point of interruption is the arrow if the contact happens after the unsuccessful shot is released.
It's my understanding that being a double foul makes this so it's no longer a PC foul. IOW, the basket would count if the shot was released prior to contact.

Not in this case, because the two fouls resulted in a double personal foul. But it does go POI and since there was no team control, go AP.

Edit: Snaq is correct. Read 4.19.8 Situation C.

If there is a crash in the paint, while the ball is in possesion of the offense, then how is there no player control? I dont think becuase its a double foul doesnt mean that the PC is cancelled.

Oh but it is, it's in the case book.

Here's how the ruling reads: (4.19.8 Situation C, page 28/29)

Even though air-borne shooter A1 committed a charging foul, it is not a player-control foul becasue the two fouls result in a double personal foul. The double foul does not cause the ball to become dead on the try and the goal is scored. Play is resumed at the point of interruption, which is a throw-in for Team B from anywhere along the end line.

My bad, but you dont go to the AP>

In your situation you wouldn't go AP because there was team control. Give the ball back to the offensive team.

In the OP, it wasn't described if there was TC or not. Therefore, JRut and I answered they handled it correctly provided there was no team control.

There's only one reason to go AP in this play. If the shot was released before contact, but was unsuccessful. Then you have no team control so you have to go AP.

Thanks for typing this out. I do not have access to my books right now and it was driving me crazy. I remembered the double foul cancelling the PC, but somewhere I missed the double call by officials being a double foul.

You're welcome, not a problem.

IMO, this is always caused by poor communication. In a game that I'm involved - during pregame - I make sure to say to yeild to the primary on a double whistle. If I'm involved in a double whistle the first thing I do is look at my partner - if it's his I drop my hand and nod - if it's mine, I take my left hand and touch my chest to signal I have it. The problem is that some guys crack the whistle on a crash like this and want to realy SELL the call and don't pay any attention to their partner. A blarge is never fun - but at least it's specifically dealt with in the rule book now.

Did you think that it wasn't before? It's not new. I have kept my books since 2001-02 and this same case play is in there. I'm sure that someone else can confirm that it goes back even earlier.

You are right - I don't know what I'm thinking. They did change it though. I think when they added the team control foul thing. It used to be never count the bucket - now you do in certain situations. And the POI was something else that wasn't in the book.

I claim insanity . . . of course in my defense, now as opposed to 15 years ago - I'm still right!:p (well, maybe!)

You are correct that team control fouls and POI are recent additions to the NFHS rules coming in with the 2005-06 season. However, the player control cancels a goal and the a double foul allows it to count rules have been around for quite awhile. I don't know the exact years, but it is more than 10.

It's in my 1914 book - the one I bought personally from Dr. Naismith.

I thought they were still using the original 13 rules back then. :confused:

BTW, does MTD still have the original poster? I thought it was revealed a couple years ago that he had it. :D

1. The ruling is correct. You have a double foul where both fouls are reported and plays is resumed with the AP. If the player scores the basket is wiped because of the player control foul.

Nope, your ruling is incorrect. Play is resumed with the POI rule, not the AP, and if the try is successful the goal is scored as this is a double foul, not a player control foul.

Per this NFHS casebook play which was already cited above by Tanner:

4.19.8 SITUATION C: A1 drives for a try and jumps and releases the ball. Contact occurs between A1 and B1 after the release and before airborne shooter A1 returns to the floor. One official calls a blocking foul on B1 and the other official calls a charging foul on A1. The try is successful. RULING: Even though airborne shooter A1 committed a charging foul, it is not a player-control foul because the two fouls result in a double personal foul. The double foul does not cause the ball to become dead on the try and the goal is scored. Play is resumed at the point of interruption, which is a throw-in for Team B from anywhere along the end line. (4-36)

opps! I'm sorry. if he misses AP arrow. I didn't read it correctly. I feel like an idiot.

Good looking out

Regading situation #1 - how many officials have had this happen while working a game?

I have never had it happen. I dont give prelims unless there is a crash and there is no whistle.

I have had it happen about 4 times. One took place in a two man game in the dreaded trouble area on the Lead's side of the court but above FT line extended. All other times happen in 3 man games. Two of them frankly I do not see them as my fault. One of these situations originated completely in my area and my partner did not even raise their hand. Another situation my partner came right out and signaled without a stop clock signal. One of the situations I was too much in a hurry to make a call and did not see or hear my partner’s whistle or signal. Oh well, you live and learn.

Peace

Knock on wood, but so far so good. This hasn't happened to me yet. In our pre-game, this is a topic that is always discussed and to be patient on a double whistle make good eye contact before making a signal.

I agree with the approach of referring the double whistle to the primary. I am guessing here, due to lack of experience, but I would suspect this would happen more often on lower level games, especially if one official is not calling violations and the other feels the need to expand his coverage.... Otherwise I would like to think we are watching different things and both would not have necessarily seen the Blarge. On 3 man, I could see a greater potential for this without good communication. Again a good learning topic.

It just depends. It certainly happenes at the upper levels. All different situations cause it to happen: close game, caught up in the play and try to sell the call; partner calling out of their area, or whatever. Fact is, it happens, best way to avoid it is a good pre-game addressing the blarge.