Cooling off

[K-Bach]

"The majority of the ball simply is not that good..." Games rarely live up to their hype; that doesn't reflect the officials' selection process though.

"More often than not, selection to HS playoffs is more political [than] it is how good you are." I presume you have the statistics to support this statement? I didn't think so.
"He probably earned 20% of his way." Do I even need to ask if you can corroborate this statement with statistics, or even clarify the criteria you have used to develop this estimate?

"...knowing this country's poor track record of discrimination in hiring, especially in sports, an eyebrow raises when someone who's being doing it for such a short period of time is chosen over a person who's been doing it much longer." America's poor track record of discrimination reflects those in positions of influence sharing their power with their own ilk, not throwing favours to impertinent young hucksters. However, eyebrows are often raised when a young person advances -- those who feel entitled by birth, ethnicity, age, or whatever, raise their eyebrows and wonder why some young schmuck has gone and made himself qualified for the position they have coveted in all the wrong ways.

"...in order for you to step forward, someone was held back..." Ah, more sour grapes. Apparently, individual progress is only possible if someone else is unfairly punished. Being rewarded for one's hard work and overall improvement must be foreign to you. This doesn't mean others are held back; it means they still have room to improve.

"I'll tell you what young man, you keep talking and thinking like that, and your stay at state playoff's will be short lived." Beautiful! Your argument falls apart under scrutiny and you resort to baseless and empty threats. Ooooh!

"You know, if he's working games at that level, his head is swollen and if he goes and cocks off to the wrong person, that could be his demise." After your threats fail, you accuse him of youthful hubris and disrespect. Clearly, anyone so young and accomplished is a ticking time bomb who should not be trusted, despite his previous behaviours.

Old School -- you strike me as petty, vengeful, bitter, ill-informed, poorly vitriolic, and sad...really sad.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by K-Bach

"The majority of the ball simply is not that good..." Games rarely live up to their hype; that doesn't reflect the officials' selection process though. I didn't say it did, but I'm glad you agree. Most HS playoff ball is boring.

"More often than not, selection to HS playoffs is more political [than] it is how good you are." I presume you have the statistics to support this statement? I didn't think so. Question asked and answered. How about you give me a chance to respond. The reason I say HS is worse than most others is because you see the same people over and over. And some of these people are simply bad officials. Some are getting too old. I really do not have a problem with HS playoffs because I just don't think it's worth all the effort, the pay is minimal and combine that with a half-azz game and to me it's just not worth it, imo. So I don't pursue it as hard as I do other types of games that are way more competitive.

I do hear a lot of officials complaining, maybe it's because there are just way more who don't get selected than there are people who do. One more thing, their voices are all saying the same thing. That's where you're going to run into problems. If they where to all get together and file a class action lawsuit against the state HS school organizations selection process. Me thinks the HS selection committee would be in a little bit of trouble with the government. The 20 year old would not look good for the home team. The funny little thing about our government, they don't like to see companies come up with criteria for hiring that only a young man can pass, or that unfairly punishes one group (older Americans) over another.

Last, and to round out my argument. I am squarely in the camp that I don't believe you have to be "super referee" to referee these games. We see mistakes made all the time at all levels. Until we get over that fact, it's going to always be a problem here. In other words, JBurr doesn't have to ref the final four every year. Just think how screwed up this country would be if we selected our president this way! Only the most qualified guy be the president. Our president would never change, and some committee would be in control of who gets to run this country, and every year, it would be the same guy over and over and over. For far too long, they have gotten away with this in the sporting industry. That's just my opinion though....

"He probably earned 20% of his way." Do I even need to ask if you can corroborate this statement with statistics, or even clarify the criteria you have used to develop this estimate? Yes, the boy confirmed it for me.

Old School -- you strike me as petty, vengeful, bitter, ill-informed, poorly vitriolic, and sad...really sad.

I wasn't trying to strike you as anything. I was just trying to make a point that you and the others took the wrong way and then ran off the cliff with it. To this date, no one has acknowledge that I said congratulation to the OP. Vengeful, not. I'm only vengeful when you strike at me.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

I wasn't trying to strike you as anything. I was just trying to make a point that you and the others took the wrong way and then ran off the cliff with it. To this date, no one has acknowledge that I said congratulation to the OP. Vengeful, not. I'm only vengeful when you strike at me.

That's because it was a backhanded congratulations. "Nice job, but...."

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

That's because it was a backhanded congratulations. "Nice job, but...."

That's because this young man coming out here gloating about his success is a backhanded slap in the face to the many officials who have been doing this much much longer.

Originally Posted by K-Bach

"I do hear a lot of officials complaining, maybe it's because there are just way more who don't get selected than there are people who do." You're serious, right? Being selective about who officiates the most important (not necessarily the most entertaining) games is a bad thing to do? Your logic escapes me, aside from the suggestion that selecting more officials would make more people happy.

I totally agree with this, except... Why is it always the same people every year? It's like once you get to the big dance, and you do a good job (which really has nothing to do with you and everything to do with the players) you now have big dance experienced. Here's where I think the problem starts and your logic needs adjustment. Once you work the big game, you now have big game experienced and this automatically makes you more qualified to work the big game next year and the year after, and the year after that. You want to talk methodical or paraphrase Hamlet. Have you ever heard of the self-fulfilling philosophy?

Originally Posted by K-Bach

"One more thing, their voices are all saying the same thing. That's where you're going to run into problems. If they where to all get together and file a class action lawsuit against the state HS school organizations selection process." Yes, they're all saying they got screwed and doing very little about it. A class action lawsuit may indeed lead to change, but it may also verify the selection process. This lawsuit would, however, produce a lot of testimony. All of it, I'm sure, from officials who feel they were screwed and none from officials who learned from being "snubbed" and worked hard to improve their game.

How do you know that? The assumption here, which I don't think is right or fair, is that all the people who didn't get selected, are undeserving. I don't think that the selection process will verify as good as you think it will if you really start to dig into it.

To bring this discussion full circle for me. I'm going to give you 2 examples and hopefully this will rest my case.
#1.) The tape don't lie. I've been to the camps and I know 3-person mechanics and I'm sitting here watching the start of a playoff game and the U1 is standing in front of the table on the jump ball. His position is like it's a 2-person game. You know this guy doesn't know 3-person.
#2.) Things that I have heard from some pregame discussions. NCAA official says, has there been any changes to HS rules this year? I haven't work any HS games at all this year. Now, how does a college official who hasn't work any HS games this year, get a HS playoff assignment?

Now, you throw in a young guy in his twenties and you expect me to believe that there is no problems in the selection process! You expect me to believe that all is well and this guy earned his way in! You also want me to believe that this is not political. Maybe it doesn't rise to any global ramifications like what we are facing in our society today, but it is certainly political. If you want to argue that it's not, then maybe we need to make it political in order to get a satisfactorily resolution. I have told you that this is not that big of deal for me but you must understand that there are a lot of officials out here, over time, that has witness this type of hypocrisy. Their attitudes maybe permanently soured from all the negative things they have seen happen.

I have the solution though I doubt if anybody going to listen to me. Complete overhaul of the selection committee and term limits.

Originally Posted by K-Bach

Oh, this is too much fun...

Agreed...

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

That's because this young man coming out here gloating about his success is a backhanded slap in the face to the many officials who have been doing this much much longer.

Then don't bother with the backhanded compliment. You're making assumptions and imputing motives where you have no right to do so. He wasn't gloating so much as venting. If someone mentioning that they had a playoff game offends you....

Originally Posted by Old School

How do you know that? The assumption here, which I don't think is right or fair, is that all the people who didn't get selected, are undeserving.

It might help if you actually read the quotes you're using in your posts. He didn't say "all" such people are undeserving.

Originally Posted by Old School

To bring this discussion full circle for me. I'm going to give you 2 examples and hopefully this will rest my case.
#1.) The tape don't lie. I've been to the camps and I know 3-person mechanics and I'm sitting here watching the start of a playoff game and the U1 is standing in front of the table on the jump ball. His position is like it's a 2-person game. You know this guy doesn't know 3-person.

This tells me you live in a state that is just recently going to three person mechanics. And again, you're making an assumption that isn't warranted. Just because a guy goes to the wrong position once doesn't mean he doesn't know 3 person mechanics. At most, it shows he has recently worked a significant amount of 2-person and momentarily lost track of the opening mechanic.

Originally Posted by Old School

#2.) Things that I have heard from some pregame discussions. NCAA official says, has there been any changes to HS rules this year? I haven't work any HS games at all this year. Now, how does a college official who hasn't work any HS games this year, get a HS playoff assignment?

Are you saying you were involved with the pregame discussion for a playoff game? I don't know of a single state where an official who hasn't worked a single HS game can get a playoff game. In both states I've worked in, it's not possible. In every other state I've heard about with regard to this, it's not possible. I'm calling you out on this. In what state can an official get a playoff game without having done a single HS varsity game all season?

Originally Posted by Old School

Now, you throw in a young guy in his twenties and you expect me to believe that there is no problems in the selection process!

I'm confused about your problem. Are you upset that the old guys keep getting playoff assignments? Are you upset that young guys keep getting playoff assignments? Or are you upset that you haven't got a playoff assignment?

Originally Posted by Old School

You expect me to believe that all is well and this guy earned his way in! You also want me to believe that this is not political. Maybe it doesn't rise to any global ramifications like what we are facing in our society today, but it is certainly political. If you want to argue that it's not, then maybe we need to make it political in order to get a satisfactorily resolution.

That's right. Call your congressman.

[K-Bach]

Snaq took care of most of the logical inconsistencies, but...

"Now, you throw in a young guy in his twenties and you expect me to believe that there is no problems in the selection process!" What does this comment have to do with the college officials you spuriously use as examples? You are truly the king of non-sequitors!

"You expect me to believe that all is well and this guy earned his way in! You also want me to believe that this is not political." No, I want you to make a coherent argument, preferably one that incorporates logic and relevant examples.

"I have the solution though I doubt if anybody going to listen to me. Complete overhaul of the selection committee and term limits." The reason nobody here is listening to your solution is because you haven't provided a reasonable description of the problem -- innuendo, non-sequitors, sweeping generalizations, and biased half-truths do not convince the audience (except in politics). Furthermore, I was not aware that there was one selection committee for all HS playoffs in the USA. It should be easy to fix the problems if there's only one committee. If there are, as I suspect, at least 50 committees, then wholesale, national change will be difficult, though still none of my business.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It might help if you actually read the quotes you're using in your posts. He didn't say "all" such people are undeserving.

This is not about what any one person said. I think the general consensus is that the people who didn't get selected are undeserving.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

This tells me you live in a state that is just recently going to three person mechanics. And again, you're making an assumption that isn't warranted. Just because a guy goes to the wrong position once doesn't mean he doesn't know 3 person mechanics. At most, it shows he has recently worked a significant amount of 2-person and momentarily lost track of the opening mechanic.

A quick off the cuff question for you Snagwells. Would you toss the ball on a jump to start a playoff game if your U1 was out of position? Gotcha!!! U1 wasn't the only one that didn't' know where he was supposed to be. You can't have it both ways man. You can't say you have to attend camps and then put somebody out there that's never been to a camp. This is where bad attitudes are born.

Are you saying you were involved with the pregame discussion for a playoff game? I don't know of a single state where an official who hasn't worked a single HS game can get a playoff game.

All I'm going to say on this is it happens.

I'm confused about your problem. Are you upset that the old guys keep getting playoff assignments? Are you upset that young guys keep getting playoff assignments? Or are you upset that you haven't got a playoff assignment?

I'm not upset about any playoff assignments but I did get a little irk when the young punk told me to not to post out here anymore after receiving a playoff assignment. A wise man once said; be very careful not to pi$$ off the man that doesn't care as you may not like his response.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

This is not about what any one person said. I think the general consensus is that the people who didn't get selected are undeserving.

Not exactly. I think the general consensus is the ones who do get selected are deserving. There's a difference.
A corrolary to that consensus is that, for the most part, the guys who whine the most are generally not as qualified. 17 years of experience doesn't, by itself, make an official qualified for a playoff assignment. I've seen plenty of times when a 3rd year ref is better than his 15th year partner.

Originally Posted by Old School

A quick off the cuff question for you Snaqwells. Would you toss the ball on a jump to start a playoff game if your U1 was out of position? Gotcha!!!

I'd like to think I'd catch it; I've never had an U do that in a 3 man game. I've never seen it. Again, it doesn't mean they don't know 3 man mechanics. At least it doesn't mean that by itself. People make mistakes and sometimes get minor things confused.

Originally Posted by Old School

U1 wasn't the only one that didn't' know where he was supposed to be.

No, it just means U1 wasn't the only one who didn't catch his mistake. You're making assumptions and accusations you don't have enough information to make.

Originally Posted by Old School

You can't have it both ways man. You can't say you have to attend camps and then put somebody out there that's never been to a camp. This is where bad attitudes are born.

Again with the unfounded accusations. You have no idea, based on the information you've presented here, that these guys hadn't been to a camp.

Originally Posted by Old School

All I'm going to say on this is it happens.

Not that you care, but I don't believe it and I don't think anyone else here does either.

Originally Posted by Old School

I'm not upset about any playoff assignments but I did get a little irk when the young punk told me to not to post out here anymore after receiving a playoff assignment.

That's not how it played out. You gave him a backhanded compliment, backed it up, and pissed the guy off. You're the one who provoked his response. His playoff assignment had nothing to do with telling you to take a hike. It was your abrasive response that did it.

Originally Posted by Old School

A wise man once said; be very careful not to pi$$ off the man that doesn't care as you may not like his response.

A bit of advice from someone you don't like; find a new wise man. This guy's ripping you off.