Cooling off

[PIAA REF]

To my knowledge I am the only ref that is under 30 that is able to ref at the state level. There are a few others that are in their early 30's. I may be not thinking about one or 2 but I believe I might be the only one.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by PIAA REF

To my knowledge I am the only ref that is under 30 that is able to ref at the state level. There are a few others that are in their early 30's. I may be not thinking about one or 2 but I believe I might be the only one.

I rest my case. However, I still will congratulate you (hopefully this time you Will hear it) because this is still an accomplish. Just remember, in order for you to step forward, someone was held back. I know you probably don't care about that but in the industry you seek to move up in. There are many disappointed officials and not all of them fall into the category of not good enough.

I support the strategy that assigners, just like our presidents, should have term limits.

[dblref]

@OS

Just remember, in order for you to step forward, someone was held back.

Not necessarily true. By working hard, PIAA REF took the initiative to get better and he stepped forward. Maybe, just maybe, those that got left behind didn't do anything to step forward.

[PIAA REF]

Old School I won't hear anything coming from you. You are like a said not a real ref, No one likes you on here so why don't you do us all a favor and stop visiting this sight.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by PIAA REF

Old School I won't hear anything coming from you. You are like a said not a real ref, No one likes you on here so why don't you do us all a favor and stop visiting this sight.

I'll tell you what young man, you keep talking and thinking like that, and your stay at state playoff's will be short lived.

[SmokeEater]

Originally Posted by Old School

I'll tell you what young man, you keep talking and thinking like that, and your stay at state playoff's will be short lived.

Hahaha, This just about made me Pee my Pants......

Like you can do anything about it, take care of getting your own back yard in order first OS.

[bellnier]

I'm not a ref but I like to think I'm a fairly astute observer; I've gone to many 100s of games over the years, at all levels, in the capacity of coach, parent of players, friend of refs, school rep., photographer, etc. I know I'm stating the obvious, but sometimes I can't help but throw in my 2 cents: I've seen plenty of young refs that are fortunate to have a mix of common sense, proper philosophy, rules knowledge and toughness. They're not born that way, but for some reason the learning curve is not so steep for them. I've seen several of them move up rapidly, and deservedly so. For others, the curve seems much steeper,their rise to better assignments is proportioanlly slower, but many also "get there". Others are stuck, regardless of age and for a variety of reasons, right where they are. Admittedly, there are politics and favoritism in every job on this planet, but I'm telling you that I've been pretty successful at predicting the advancement, or lack of advancement, of many officials based solely of my observation of their on-court performance...I don't know jack about their "connections" (and don't care to). Bottom line (pardon the lame metaphor): cream rises to the top.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

Hahaha, This just about made me Pee my Pants......

Like you can do anything about it, take care of getting your own back yard in order first OS.

Hahaha, maybe you have a bladder problem if that made you just about wee-wee your pants. No, I can't do anything about it but I can offer him some real advice. You know, if he's working games at that level, his head is swollen and if he goes and cocks off to the wrong person, that could be his demise.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

I'll tell you what young man, you keep talking and thinking like that, and your stay at state playoff's will be short lived.

PIAA Ref, you'd better apologize, or you'll never get a rec league game again.

[mplagrow]

Originally Posted by Old School

I'll tell you what young man, you keep talking and thinking like that, and your stay at state playoff's will be short lived.

[JRutledge]

If anyone thinks seriously that anyone is hired only on the basis of merit that would be a very uninformed and unrealistic point of view. People in all aspects of life are picked or hired to do things because of outside factors. Sometimes it is who you know and sometimes it is what you know. We could apply this to just about any profession in this country and you will see someone get a job someone could question the merits of that decision. Merit after all is subjective.

I also think people use "politics" as an excuse for why they do not get opportunities too much as well. Are some people held back because who they are? Of course. Some of what holds people back are their own doing. Like not attending the right camps or meetings as other successful officials do. Being unprofessional and throwing fellow officials under the bus. Always complaining about what you did not get. There are so many things I see officials do and say that put them out of the loop.

Quick story. I was supposed to work a varsity game and I was in the locker room during the prelim with two officials talking. One of the officials was an official that moved from another area and had worked in the post-season in our state. Well he was running his mouth in the locker room about a bunch of assignor that he claimed would not hire him and how they were terrible and a bunch of jerks and horrible officials. Well his partner happened to be related to a very prominent official. I was standing in the room and not once did he ask me who I was or why I was there. He went on and on for several minutes as if no one was in the locker room. Well after the prelim game the partner made a comment to me about what this guy was saying. A few weeks later I run into the relative of this official that was just listening to this rant at a college game. The first thing this relative official said to me was about this incident several weeks before. The word had gotten around. It was also clear that many officials over the area either knew about this incident or know something about how this guy’s behavior is displayed on a more regular basis. The irony for the last two years he was paired up with the assignor of the conference of the prelim game I witnessed this little rant. The first year both this official and the assignor had words. The next year they apparently got over the incident and acted professionally. But this one moment in time hurt this official with many in the area and he likely did not work a lot of conferences as a result. So when I hear people complain about how politics held them back, I wonder if there are many similar incidents out there that have held guys back.

You might be the best official in the world, but your behavior on and off the court can hurt you big time.

Peace

[K-Bach]

"The majority of the ball simply is not that good..." Games rarely live up to their hype; that doesn't reflect the officials' selection process though.

"More often than not, selection to HS playoffs is more political [than] it is how good you are." I presume you have the statistics to support this statement? I didn't think so.
"He probably earned 20% of his way." Do I even need to ask if you can corroborate this statement with statistics, or even clarify the criteria you have used to develop this estimate?

"...knowing this country's poor track record of discrimination in hiring, especially in sports, an eyebrow raises when someone who's being doing it for such a short period of time is chosen over a person who's been doing it much longer." America's poor track record of discrimination reflects those in positions of influence sharing their power with their own ilk, not throwing favours to impertinent young hucksters. However, eyebrows are often raised when a young person advances -- those who feel entitled by birth, ethnicity, age, or whatever, raise their eyebrows and wonder why some young schmuck has gone and made himself qualified for the position they have coveted in all the wrong ways.

"...in order for you to step forward, someone was held back..." Ah, more sour grapes. Apparently, individual progress is only possible if someone else is unfairly punished. Being rewarded for one's hard work and overall improvement must be foreign to you. This doesn't mean others are held back; it means they still have room to improve.

"I'll tell you what young man, you keep talking and thinking like that, and your stay at state playoff's will be short lived." Beautiful! Your argument falls apart under scrutiny and you resort to baseless and empty threats. Ooooh!

"You know, if he's working games at that level, his head is swollen and if he goes and cocks off to the wrong person, that could be his demise." After your threats fail, you accuse him of youthful hubris and disrespect. Clearly, anyone so young and accomplished is a ticking time bomb who should not be trusted, despite his previous behaviours.

Old School -- you strike me as petty, vengeful, bitter, ill-informed, poorly vitriolic, and sad...really sad.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by K-Bach

"The majority of the ball simply is not that good..." Games rarely live up to their hype; that doesn't reflect the officials' selection process though. I didn't say it did, but I'm glad you agree. Most HS playoff ball is boring.

"More often than not, selection to HS playoffs is more political [than] it is how good you are." I presume you have the statistics to support this statement? I didn't think so. Question asked and answered. How about you give me a chance to respond. The reason I say HS is worse than most others is because you see the same people over and over. And some of these people are simply bad officials. Some are getting too old. I really do not have a problem with HS playoffs because I just don't think it's worth all the effort, the pay is minimal and combine that with a half-azz game and to me it's just not worth it, imo. So I don't pursue it as hard as I do other types of games that are way more competitive.

I do hear a lot of officials complaining, maybe it's because there are just way more who don't get selected than there are people who do. One more thing, their voices are all saying the same thing. That's where you're going to run into problems. If they where to all get together and file a class action lawsuit against the state HS school organizations selection process. Me thinks the HS selection committee would be in a little bit of trouble with the government. The 20 year old would not look good for the home team. The funny little thing about our government, they don't like to see companies come up with criteria for hiring that only a young man can pass, or that unfairly punishes one group (older Americans) over another.

Last, and to round out my argument. I am squarely in the camp that I don't believe you have to be "super referee" to referee these games. We see mistakes made all the time at all levels. Until we get over that fact, it's going to always be a problem here. In other words, JBurr doesn't have to ref the final four every year. Just think how screwed up this country would be if we selected our president this way! Only the most qualified guy be the president. Our president would never change, and some committee would be in control of who gets to run this country, and every year, it would be the same guy over and over and over. For far too long, they have gotten away with this in the sporting industry. That's just my opinion though....

"He probably earned 20% of his way." Do I even need to ask if you can corroborate this statement with statistics, or even clarify the criteria you have used to develop this estimate? Yes, the boy confirmed it for me.

Old School -- you strike me as petty, vengeful, bitter, ill-informed, poorly vitriolic, and sad...really sad.

I wasn't trying to strike you as anything. I was just trying to make a point that you and the others took the wrong way and then ran off the cliff with it. To this date, no one has acknowledge that I said congratulation to the OP. Vengeful, not. I'm only vengeful when you strike at me.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

I wasn't trying to strike you as anything. I was just trying to make a point that you and the others took the wrong way and then ran off the cliff with it. To this date, no one has acknowledge that I said congratulation to the OP. Vengeful, not. I'm only vengeful when you strike at me.

That's because it was a backhanded congratulations. "Nice job, but...."

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

That's because it was a backhanded congratulations. "Nice job, but...."

That's because this young man coming out here gloating about his success is a backhanded slap in the face to the many officials who have been doing this much much longer.

Originally Posted by K-Bach

"I do hear a lot of officials complaining, maybe it's because there are just way more who don't get selected than there are people who do." You're serious, right? Being selective about who officiates the most important (not necessarily the most entertaining) games is a bad thing to do? Your logic escapes me, aside from the suggestion that selecting more officials would make more people happy.

I totally agree with this, except... Why is it always the same people every year? It's like once you get to the big dance, and you do a good job (which really has nothing to do with you and everything to do with the players) you now have big dance experienced. Here's where I think the problem starts and your logic needs adjustment. Once you work the big game, you now have big game experienced and this automatically makes you more qualified to work the big game next year and the year after, and the year after that. You want to talk methodical or paraphrase Hamlet. Have you ever heard of the self-fulfilling philosophy?

Originally Posted by K-Bach

"One more thing, their voices are all saying the same thing. That's where you're going to run into problems. If they where to all get together and file a class action lawsuit against the state HS school organizations selection process." Yes, they're all saying they got screwed and doing very little about it. A class action lawsuit may indeed lead to change, but it may also verify the selection process. This lawsuit would, however, produce a lot of testimony. All of it, I'm sure, from officials who feel they were screwed and none from officials who learned from being "snubbed" and worked hard to improve their game.

How do you know that? The assumption here, which I don't think is right or fair, is that all the people who didn't get selected, are undeserving. I don't think that the selection process will verify as good as you think it will if you really start to dig into it.

To bring this discussion full circle for me. I'm going to give you 2 examples and hopefully this will rest my case.
#1.) The tape don't lie. I've been to the camps and I know 3-person mechanics and I'm sitting here watching the start of a playoff game and the U1 is standing in front of the table on the jump ball. His position is like it's a 2-person game. You know this guy doesn't know 3-person.
#2.) Things that I have heard from some pregame discussions. NCAA official says, has there been any changes to HS rules this year? I haven't work any HS games at all this year. Now, how does a college official who hasn't work any HS games this year, get a HS playoff assignment?

Now, you throw in a young guy in his twenties and you expect me to believe that there is no problems in the selection process! You expect me to believe that all is well and this guy earned his way in! You also want me to believe that this is not political. Maybe it doesn't rise to any global ramifications like what we are facing in our society today, but it is certainly political. If you want to argue that it's not, then maybe we need to make it political in order to get a satisfactorily resolution. I have told you that this is not that big of deal for me but you must understand that there are a lot of officials out here, over time, that has witness this type of hypocrisy. Their attitudes maybe permanently soured from all the negative things they have seen happen.

I have the solution though I doubt if anybody going to listen to me. Complete overhaul of the selection committee and term limits.

Originally Posted by K-Bach

Oh, this is too much fun...

Agreed...