The crew did nothing...
 

vent

I showed up earlier for a game I was working and got to watch some of the game before mine. In the game, the referee had a good (no, I'll even go great) no-call. The player made an odd looking move at the basket, but definitely not a travel (if you know the rules, which these players most certainly didn't). Anyways, as the T is counting off the 5 seconds for the throw-in after the made basket, a player on the team who now has the ball screams "You're f---ing horrible." I was appalled, and just waiting for the flagrant T, but NOTHING HAPPENED. Neither the T nor the L (2-man) called it. I'm willing to give the L the benefit of the doubt, as he said (after the game when I talked to him) that he didn't hear it. When I asked the T about it, all he had to say was, "Well, I just have tough skin," and then chuckled about it.

I could have exploded:mad: ....but I needed to work the next game, and they would prefer a whole me over little bits and pieces

/vent

I do not know about a flagrent T but deffinatly a T, but then again I have tough skin.

You don't? Then you must have been the same idiot that didn't throw the flagrant T.

Tough skin has zero to do with it. You allow him to get away with it and he'll do it again. That's why we have problems today with kids like OJ Mayo, because officials don't have the balls to do what's right.

5.6.2 SITUATION F:
Following the final horn in a game which has Team A leading 62-60, the coach of Team A sprints after the game officials and shouts profanity at the referee who has just left the playing court outside the end line.

RULING: The referee shall charge the coach with a flagrant technical foul and the results of the two free throws will determine whether an extra period will be necessary. The jurisdiction of the officials had not ended as the referee was still within the visual confines of the playing area. (2-2-4)

This is a nobrainer flagrant.

Are you serious? You'd let a high school player say something like that without tossing him?

No wonder we have problems with some players and teams if they're used to getting away with crap like that.

Well, this wasn't HS. But nevertheless, these officials, both of whom I know, knew better. I just needed to vent. When something like this happens, I know that down the line, when the playoffs for this league start next week, and one of them tries to pull that with me, or any other referee, and they get tossed, then I'll hear "but last week I didn't get in trouble for it." Then again, he'll be promptly exiting the gym, so I shouldn't hear much out of them anyways. I just know that somewhere down the line, another ref is going to be made to look like the bad guy (or gal) when they have to toss them.

On another note, working in a different league this weekend (kids rec league), I had a parent yell at me, "Obviously you've never seen the officials work games in the," wait for it......"SEC!" I was really hoping he'd say Big 10 so I could start giving 25-hip-bang block calls just like Hightower.

The best lesson I've learned is that you just have to let it all go once the game is over. Sure, the coach was an A**, but when it's all said and done with, if I can go home, watch some basketball and chuckle about it all, it just makes it all that much better.

Ok, you got me that should be flagrent. A kid will not get away with that and stay in the game next time.

In my opinion, I would have not given flagrant, just an unsportsmanlike T. He should have been stuck. I would have done it immediately.

Then you're f---ing horrible too.

JMO.:)

I would make that this kid doesn't play for a while. Officials can't let this behavior go without some negative reactions..

Too bad that just your opinion. I am sure you are a perfect official in your own eyes......JMO.

If it doesn't bother you if a high school player says that to you, why would it bother you if another official said that to you also?:confused:

Think about it. Or not.

Don't get it
 

Maybe I am just tired and not thinking right but I don't see why you have a flagrant T in this case. A T for unsportmanlike behavior yes but to toss a kid for swearing I just don't think so. At least not in my district. I would def. give a T but I would not toss him. Can you guys give me a rule book reason for the toss.

Sigh. It's already been cited above by BktBallRef. Case book play 5.6.2SitF. You don't mind high school kids swearing at <b>YOU</b> either, I take it?

Hey, be my guest. Let 'em call you every name in the book, for all I care. Hell, they know that they're not gonna get thrown out anyway. Remember, though, to be fair you have to let <b>every</b> single player on both teams swear at <b>YOU</b> like that without fear of being tossed. Not to mention coaches, trainers, student managers, etc., etc., etc.

You reap what you sow, and officials that don't want to to take care of bidness deserve exactly what they get.

This is totally a judgment call. I would not toss a player either just based on what I read. I was also not there either. He would get a T if I heard him clearly, but not ejected. All a judgment call.

Peace

Imo
 

I think you are using a case that doesn't fit the situation. This is my opinion I do not have my books with me at work, but I will leave you with this. If you did this im my area during the playoffs while being evaluated you would be told you were wrong. 100%, yes the T is legit but not the toss. The reason I said playoffs is that is where we are evaluated (sometimes)
I am not trying to get into a pissing match with you at all, I just do not agree with an ejection.

Sometimes evaluators are morons, too.

He was (1) personal and (2) profane.

It's funny, in baseball just saying "you're horrible" would be an near-automatic ejection. Toss in an f-bomb adjective and some wouldn't eject in a basketball game?

Wow. Just wow.

I don't need a rule book or case book to point towards the locker room and say, "Go there."

Because WE are suppose to be on the same team. Sometimes your posts either deserve or dont deserve a response. I guess you do that to make a point or trigger a response. See JR's post and respond to his the same way.

If Rut wants to let high school players swear <b>at</b> him also, then good for <b>him</b> too. I have the same opinion whether it's you or him. You do <b>NOT</b> let high school players swear <b>AT</b> you <b>EVER</b> imo. Ther'e a big difference between swearing and swearing <b>at</b> an official.

If y'all want to put up with that though, hey, bend over and be my guest.:)

Again, jmo. If you doesn't bother you when players call you names, you sureasheck shouldn't get upset at what's said to you here either.

The definition of flagrant, according to Merriam Webster is: "so obviously inconsistent with what is right or proper as to appear to be a flouting of law or morality."

In my humble opinion, a player using the most obscene of language, in a screaming fashion, towards an official, represents not just a lack of respect, but in fact a desire to belittle and/or abuse. It is one thing to call a technical on a player who is using profanity out of frustration and to no one in general or very loosely directed at an official's call. It is a whole other thing to have a player "scream" the most foul obscenity at a figure of authority.

It's a flagrant on my court.

I agree! I had the exact case book play happen to me. Team B won 82-80 B. I WHACK HIM!! Unfortunately, the opposing team missed the free-throws.

But, officials dont swear at officials, so that statement and your responce is irrelevant. Please check you grammer at the end of your post. Evidently, you are upset or cant type plain english. JMO....LOL

That's kinda sad I think.

IMO a HS player that screams "you are f'ing horrible!" at the officials opens himself up to immediate DQ. Why work for an assignor who doesn't agree?

Were not
 

You keep on saying we are letting kids swear at us, were not we all agreed to T them up, that is their penalty Now if they do it again then yes they would be gone. So we are not letting them do that, we just have a different philosophy on the penalty. For someone who has come across to me (on here) as a nice but opinionated guy, you my friend have been out of line on this post. You are out right trying to belittle your fellow officials. You are wrong. You in Old School are one in the same to me now.

Here is the problem I have with your argument, you are caught up into swearing. There are other comments that I find worse than swearing. Swearing are just some specific words. I look for a little more than just some words.

Peace

But if we're calling consistently throughout the game, then it really doesn't matter that it took place during the game as opposed to after the game. I agree, it is a little different, but I believe that one of the keys here is that profanity, directed specificly at an officials, is flagrant.

Here's why I thought this one should be flagrant.

1.) You're horrible- Criticizing you personally.
2.) Throw in the f-bomb- Now he's criticizing you personally, with profanity.
3.) The volume- This was loud, loud enough that I could clearly hear it in the stands.

I always thought this was a no-brainer flagrant, but now I'm starting to rethink it a bit.

I understand that you would T him up, but IMO, that's an incredibly lenient punishment for such a (dare I use the adjective?) flagrant act of unsportsmanlike conduct.

I think we disagree not just as to the penalty, but to the interpretation of the word "flagrant." How would you define flagrant?

Unsporting Behavior
 

UNSPORTING BEHAVIOR
2.8.1 COMMENT: Unsporting tactics, in general, involve relationships between opponents, between the players and officials, between the spectators and officials, between the players and spectators, between the coaches and spectators, and between coaches and officials. In most situations, it does not apply to the relationship of a player to teammates, nor to the coach and members of the team. However, these standards are not without exception. For example, profanity on the part of a participant, coach or member of the team is considered to be an unsporting act, whether or not the profanity is directed at any individual or is merely a means of “letting off steam.” (10-1-8; 10-3-7; 10-4-1)

This rule doesn't really back up the assertion that the original scenario is NOT flagrant. The bolded section is intended to clarify that just because profanity is not directed towards anyone in particular, it does not mean it shouldn't be called. This has nothing to do with the flagrant nature of a technical foul.

I will ask you the same question I asked the other poster. What would you consider to be the definition of flagrant? How far would this particular player have to go to get you to call a flagrant?

who knows
 

The bottom line is that this is the officials judgement. To me this falls into the unsportmanlike rule and I would issue a T. In my state a Flagrant T would mean he is done for the night and the next game as well. I just don't see him being frustrated and verbalizing it should result in that stiff of penalty.
I will use this example. (names are made up)
Bob is really mad at his insurance agent because he thought he was entitled to more money. Bob yells at him and even goes as far as saying he is going to hurt him. Only 2 things could happen: Agent does nothing or at worst reports Bob to police and a minor infraction is assessed to Bob
OR: Same case Bob is mad and punches agent or even kills him. In what case should a stiffer penalty be issued?
Same case in BBALL frustration was shown with words (t is given) Other actions (hits someone) Goes after an official: Stiffer penalty is given.
This is just my opionion. What we need to understand that this is a judgement issue.

The rules do not say it has to be flagrant either. This is all my point is. This is a judgment call. All I will say if I ejected everyone that used profanity there are places there would be no game. But then again, I do not just get upset when I hear profanity. I address other little comments that players have no business saying to me. Then again I do not allow players to call me by my first name. So I tend to have a different set of values than most here in the first place.

Peace

How about the personal nature or the volume?

Bob should have gotten Aflac:cool: ....

In all seriousness though, I see the distinction you're trying to make, and definitely think you have a good point, there are worse situations that we wouldn't have any greater punishment for. I honestly don't know how to respond to this. Definitely some good food for thought.

What about it? Are you ejected all comments without profanity and a high volume?

I also tend to set a tone that I am not the one. I cannot speak for what the rest of you do.

Peace

Okay, let me say this. On our board, tossing a player for that would be very questionable and the coach would have gone to others to get it overturned. You can never reproduce the emotion or the intensity of how it was said. One official may have more tolerance for such words and handle it a whole different way. Myself personally, whether its the f-bomb or any curse word, you get an automatic "t", whether its directed to me or not. Now, IF it is directed to me and you get in my face or bump me during this exchange, then you get tossed. I hope that clears up the air.

Every time a player says "you're (adjective)" where the adjective is negative, I eject. EVERY time. Without question, without fail. Period. Last year I had someone in a dugout yell out, "You're brutal," and I tossed him without a second thought.

Maybe it's my baseball background, but I don't tolerate that in any sport I work. Yell at the stripes, don't yell at me.

That part you got right. But the part about me and JR are one in the same is way off. I am merely on the defense when interjecting on this forum. People like JR are constantly on the attack. I have stated this many times before that he likes to throw officials under the bus. Me, I just refuse to sit back and take it. I have endured enough of that in my life. So I strike back but I am always on the defense.

JRut,

I don't think anyone's ejecting solely based on volume, but I think it's just one more thing to factor into the whole senario.

Also, what do you mean by, "I also tend to set a tone that I am not the one"? Just wondering, because I didn't quite understand it from your post.

That is fine with me. I am not going to eject for that alone.

Peace

How does it not fit? Is it okay for a player to do it but not a coach? Is it okay during the game but not after? Seriously, how is this different?

how about the fact that if a player assaults an official, he's going to get more than one game suspension. Quite possibly, he'll get criminal charges. The OP calls for a flagrant T and the one game suspension that goes with it, IMO. If he goes further, then the state can determine whether there's more called for or not.

You have directly insulted, without provocation, other officials on this board besides JR and me. Don't sit back and pretend to be on the high road and play victim.

Irony and sarcasm can be fun. :)

I have learned how to carry myself in a way that this kind of behavior does not happen to me. Not to say it would never happen in the future, but I guess I do not see a reason to throw someone out because they lost control for a moment. I would rather give two Ts, than one if I am going to eject someone for their behavior.

Peace

Yes, did that on purpus!!! LOL

I concur. If that player has a problem with an official, he will let it out again.....

When I read the OP, it states the official just chuckled about it. He did not think it was that bad, so I don't understand why you are debating it. Whether is was a flagrant T or not is irrelevant b/c both officials passed on the call. If you want to debate flagrant or not. That is a judgment call, not an absolute like JR says. I can toss a coach or player for saying far less than that so whether a flagrant is called or not is judgment.

You and JR need to learn to trust your partners and fellow comrades. What I mean is they are possibly at the end of there night and thinking about the good time they are going to have afterwards. Some player says something completely dumb, and I'm like, if I call this technical, that's going to delay the game that much more, and it's not going to change the outcome. This game is over and I'm not slowing it down to shoot no technicals, got to explain to the coach why, etc., etc. Even though it was well deserved, ain't got time tonight. Got a beautiful honey waiting on me afterwards. I'm going home.

I can't tell you how many times a player or coach has spouted off to me at or near the end of the game, and I just ignored it because it's not going to change the outcome. The only thing it's going to do is delay my leaving that much more. Cause some other undue stuff that I now have to deal with. If my evaluator is there and says why I didn't call that technical. I would say what technical? Didn't you hear that kid on the bench? I'd be like, what kid? What did he say? Damn, if I would have heard that, I would have T him. Have a good night.....

I'm speechless.

Don't be, apparently that's how it's done in the rec leagues and college intramural programs where OS works.

So, the technical foul becomes a "game interrupter" that gets a no-call? What about travels and illegal dribbles? By themselves, they're unlikely to change the outcome of a game as well....so do those get no-calls as well?

Don't we, as officials, have a responsibility to call the tightest game that our abilities permit in an unbiased fashion? I readily accept that a large part of our calls are based on judgment and I will certainly admit that mine judgment is not as solid as others with more experience than I, but to say the outcome of a game wouldn't change and use that thinking to justify a no-call is simply a dis-service to the game of basketball.

Maybe I'm reading more into the post than what was meant to be, but I dunno...

They can <B>ALWAYS</B> find an excellent reason to talk themselves into <b>NOT</b> ejecting someone, Rich. And they wonder why some coaches and players are out of control. It's because they're afraid to control them.

Sad.

They are not out of control in my games.

Peace

No, I just think that sometimes you should trust the people that are responsible to making the call. There maybe other factors that cause the no-call. Like, I just didn't hear it. Friday I had a girls game that was a 30 point blow-out. Late in the game both teams empty there benches and my judgment for fouls in the game changed. I let some contact fouls go because he was time to go home. Neither teams coaches, players or fans said a word. It was obvious unless blood was drawn (figure of speech) there wasn't going to be anymore calls. My point is, as long as everyone's okay with it, you get it over with and you go home. If you are the type that feels like you are not earning your money or doing a disservice to the profession unless you call everything you see, then call it. Just don't be surprise if not everyones see it that way.

They are not out of control in my games either!!

Well, if you let players swear <b>AT</b> you, then imo they sureashell <b>ARE</b> out of control. There's a <b>big</b> difference between swearing and a player calling <b>you</b> names. And there's also a big difference between high school and D1 basketball.

No wonder the OJ Mayo's of the world feel that they can get away with anything. With some officials, they can.

Again, jmo. If you and the others feel that it's OK for high school players to swear <b>at</b> you and them, be my guest. Calling a regular ol' "T" is meaningless. They'll never learn a thing from that, except that they can get away with it.

I'm going to throw a curve to this thread. what if it were your child cursing to an adult or a referee or at you. Would you ignore it and let it go?

Gee, and earlier you implied you weren't going to make the call (even a technical foul) because you wanted to go home. Apparently, the kids on the bench don't deserve the same kind of officiating as the starters and regular players?
As long as your local YMCA doesn't mind....

Right. If its one OR the other you might just call the T, but with both, its a no brainer ejection.

Doesn't matter
 

IMO it doesn't matter who it is or when it is. It will be my judgement and being it my judgement I will be consistent. I will T someone up for swearing at me, but I will not eject them. I will give them the opportunity to settle themselves down. Just because I may be more lenient than some and maybe even stricter than others imo is nether right nor wrong this again is the officials judgement. I have given out 6 T's this year. All have been on players and all have been for taunting another player except one, One was on a player who reacted to my partners call and pulled his shirt out. People also IMO have to understand that T's (whether right or wrong) are given out more in some places and less in some places. EX: In my area we don't give many out, however a new official who moved in from NC was used to giving plenty out. He said that is how they did it there. My main purpose of this example is the bottom line is no matter what game you are on or where it is be consistent. Don't let it go one night and not the next.
IMO

Stop the hyperbole. I did not say I let anyone do anything. I would gladly punish such actions, I just do not feel on its surface this is an "automatic" ejection. If you do feel it is, knock yourself out. I stop players from complain at all about any call. So usually it does not get to that level.

The OJ Mayo situation has absolutely nothing to do with this. Once again, more hyperbole.

I realize this is an emotional issue for you and you feel that you have to right all the wrongs across the country, whether it is a rules issue or why we should not listen to Referee Magazine. I think your passion is admirable on the surface, but please do not tell me why I should do something because you think it is wrong. I know we do not agree on other issues that I feel are very moral and you do not see me beating you over the head with my opinion. OJ Mayo did this in West Virginia, he did not do this in places that would have gotten him a punch back (I am kind of kidding). So OJ is used to officials giving a damn about his status. I live in an area where OJ would just be another so-called superstar and officials would not care what that kid thought. Ask fellow McDonald's American Derrick Rose and see if officials bended over backwards to make him feel special where I live?

Please do not tell me what I should do or not do in my games. I have enough experience and been through enough fires in my career in 3 sports that I can form an opinion that works for me. If you feel you need to throw someone out and fill out paper work because they used a curse word that is your right to feel that way. I have had great success with problem players and they seemed to get the message to what I do not want them to do. If you do not have that ability or want to do that, go right ahead.

Peace

I'm not telling you to do a damn thing.

Again, if <b>you</b> and Old School and the others feel that it's OK for a <b>high school</b> aged player to swear directly <b>AT</b> you, call <b>YOU</b> names, etc., and basically just give 'em a slap on the wrist, then good for all of you. Enjoy yourselves. Hey, when a game gets out of sight, all the players on the losing team can take turns swearing <b>at</b> you. What's a "T" at that time? It's not like any of 'em would ever have to worry about...gasp....maybe being thrown out of a game or sumthin'.

Personally, I won't put up with that crap from high school players or coaches. Never have, never will. That's just me though. Do what you gotta do.

I think you hit the nail on the head here, JR. Everyone has their way of handling things, and in this situation, mine would be a flagrant T. As people have pointed out, this can be due to reasons such as where you're from, your game management ability, and how you feel about profanity in general. Though JRut's opinion on this differs from mine, if he feels that the way he handles it works best for him, then I'm not going to take that away from him.

First of all, that post was written last night as a vent. Had they given just a regular T, I probably would not have made the post at all, and I think we can all agree that the statement, at least, was deserving of a T. I would have gone flagrant, JRut wouldn't. Had JRut been at the game last night, and called the T (as I believe he already said he would have) then this post would have never made it here.

Automatic T. Thats to keep the game of basketball respected.

I think it's convenient that many choose to use the, I don't have this problem in my game cop-out.

Of course they don't, because they ignore it, and leave the rest of us to clean up their mess later on...what you allow, you condone.

There is no room for that type of behavior in a HS game or lower, nor is there room for officials that allow it...have the sack to do what is right for the game and your fellow officials or don't officiate.

Who asked for your "opinion?" It's in the case book.

5.6.2 SITUATION F:
Following the final horn in a game which has Team A leading 62-60, the coach of Team A sprints after the game officials and shouts profanity at the referee who has just left the playing court outside the end line.

RULING: The referee shall charge the coach with a flagrant technical foul and the results of the two free throws will determine whether an extra period will be necessary. The jurisdiction of the officials had not ended as the referee was still within the visual confines of the playing area. (2-2-4)

I guess the NFHS must be wrong. :confused:

Go get em BKTBALREF. Why write the rule if we as officials don't follow them. Maybe moving forward they don't need referees and do pickup ball.

Why do we go to camps, attend training, take test to test us on the knowledge of the rules. If we leave it to the interpretation of each individual official then why have rules? Let's make them up as we go along... This is why we as officials get scrutnized. We are not consistant. This should be across the board. Not just leave it to the local association either. IMO

You must have a flagrant T every single game? Or are you advocating a flagrant T every single game is a must? Considering this happens all the time and it is just being ignored all officials have to step up and throw players out for this behavior.

Some officials have a reputation for many things. Maybe the officials that constantly have to deal with this do not know how to deal with people the proper way and only are penalizing behavior. Maybe there are another set of officials that know how to deal with people and they are not getting to the point where they are being cursed out. You think guys like Ed Hightower, Teddy Valentine, Teddy Higgins or Jim Burr do not have a reputation? I will not put myself on the same plane as any of those officials, but I do feel I have a reputation for not tolerating certain behavior and I work with a lot of officials that have similar reputations and no one dares to go there. Also if a team does not know me, they learn rather quickly that I do not put up with BS. All it takes is a little word with a coach and most conflict with players stops, because the coach takes care of it.

Peace

Mine either.

Its a free world, last time I checked, I had an opinion.

BktBallRef, with all due respect you can't cite the casebook 5.6.2 Situation F as "requiring" a flagrant technical foul if a kid "shouts profanity at the referee." Just like casebook 5.6.2 Situation F does not "require" that an official assess a flagrant technical foul against anyone who "sprints after the game officials." What if a coach "sprints after the game officials" after the game and says "Hey, just wanted to let you guys know you did a hell-of-a job tonight"? "Thanks, Coach, now hit the showers and you can't coach next game either"?! Of course not. The casebook situation that you cited requires an official to assess all of the factors in play and make a judgment within both the letter and spirit of the rules.

I'm not suggesting that your opinion/judgment that a flagrant technical foul should be assessed against a player who shouts profanity at an official is necessarily wrong, just pointing out that this is a result of opinion/judgment, not a NFHS edict.

"The official shall" sure reads more like an edict than an opinion to this student.

I think I understand what you're saying, JRut, but you got to this point in your career by being tough when it comes to situations like the OP, did you not?

I think perhaps you are looking at it from the perspective of a seasoned, well-known official, which is understandable. But many on this forum haven't been around our leagues/teams/coaches/players as long as you have, we don't have that "reputation" and so your advice really doesn't make any sense. How are you supposed to get to the point where players respect you if you don't lay down the law in these kinds of scenarios? How else are you supposed to build this "reputation" you speak of without being strict in cases like the OP?

I want to know, what is profanity? Profanity means different things to different people. Is the word "Damn" a profanity that needs an ejection? Is the term "Jesus Christ" deserve an ejection? Is when someone says, "Pissed" require an ejection?

I am not saying this to start a major debate. I am saying this because it is very clear that we will all never agree with profanity is. I might have a player call me a name that is not at all considered profanity, but might result in an ejection because it has other meaning that are more direct or personal. This is why I do not have a "one size fits all" solution. I guarantee if I change some words the people that have a zero tolerance which results in ejection might change their tune just a little. I think this is also why the NF does not say what is or is not profanity.

Peace

DC_Ref12, would you call the flagrant technical foul against the coach who sprinted up to you after the game to say you did one hell-of-a-job or you did a damn good job? That has the "sprinting" element and the "profanity" element. Is that an NFHS edict? The reason why officiating basketball is difficult is because judgment is so often (as in, constantly) exercised. I'm just pointing out that that is true when someone is swearing, too.

I agree that the official "shall" call the flagrant technical foul IS an edict in situations "as described in the case play." It is not an edict for all other situations involving some elements of the case play.

Any curse word will get you a "T" from me. Da*mn, A*s, F*ck, Sh*t, all of the list ones that you are not suppose to use in the company of adults and/or children. Think of the curse words you used when you were growing up as a kid and would get a whipping for. This goes for coaches as well.

So did you just admit that the type of behavior in the OP happens in every game you do?

Because that is how I'm reading it.

I don't care what rep Hightower, Valentine, Higgins and Burr have...but I guarantee you a player that screams you are Fing horrible at Teddy is getting whacked, and if it's in a HS game, that player is getting tossed...because it is irrelevant to the topic. I suspect it was just a means to talk about your rep, but that too isn't on topic.

What is on topic is:

1. The player in the OP did commit a flagrant act.

2. An official that ignores it completely is a disgrace to officiating.

3. An official that just T's the player and doesn't eject them, only makes that behavior worse in the long run, thus making all of our jobs that much harder.

LOL. You must be a lawyer.

Reputation has a lot to do with officiating and even helps officials know what type of team you are dealing with as well. I am not telling you something that is in a vacuum. Someone even said that officials with a little bit of grey hair are rarely questioned. It also helps if you are fit, in position and approachable. We all know officials that do not have the best reputations and everything they call is questioned.

Peace

If I was a good lawyer, I'd have an answer to my question by now... ;)

You would be wrong, but that is not the first time.

I have seen Teddy V give Ts left and right. I have never seen him eject someone without two Ts. I am sure there was some profanity in those situations. I will bet money on that one. Actually I cannot think of anyone outside of Rick Barnes that he got rid of. And what did you people do here, say he should have done it. :rolleyes:

1. That is an opinion and judgment, not something that we all agree on. I guess if we disagree with you

2. I think it is a disgrace to tell other people what they "should" do because it is not your opinion.

3. Maybe for you because you do not have the ability to deal with the situation. Once again, I cannot think the last time or ever that a player cursed at me. They have said other things, but cursing? No.

Peace

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it almost seems like you are saying in a roundabout way that the OP brought this situation on himself by somehow not having a reputation and/or appearance that earned him respect. Am I wrong?

Sorry, I'm just not grasping what exactly this all has to do with the situation cited in the OP. I understand and appreciate the concept of reputation, but sometimes it's quite possible that you're just gonna have a player that goes nuclear. Then what do you do?

The case play clearly states that the coach shouts profanity at the officials and that the penalty is a flagrant T foul.

It's moronic to read that play and think the T should be called because the coach sprinted after the officials.

I think the NFHS is very clear on those point. It's officials who refuse to penalize properly that add to the deterioration of the game and make it more difficult for those who call the game correctly. Officials such as yourself who refuse to penalize this properly are a huge part of the problem.

D1 basketball is a completely different world than high school ball. I can't imagine Teddy V letting any high school player swear <b>at</b> him and call him names without unloading him.

Where do you people come up with this stuff? Seriously for a second. Are you telling me that people do not judge us based on our appearance, experience, where we live, age, and demeanor. If you really want me to qualify this, then you have a lot to learn about officiating in general.

I agree, you will not grasp it.

Peace

Maybe it is where you live. ;)

Peace

Sorry to bother you.

You are not bothering me. I just think you have a lot to learn about officiating if you seriously think I said anything about the official's bringing this on themselves. If I felt that way I would say that. I will never believe that an player out of the blue went from 0-10 without other incidents not being addressed. We talk so much about what we allow, it is likely that other incidents, comments were said long before this player decided to blurt out this. It is not about bring anything on your self. But when two players and constantly jawing and we have a fight, it was not the fight that needed to be handled, it was the things that took place before the fight ever happen.

Peace

I do have a lot to learn about officiating. That's why I'm here.

And maybe if I heard it from Teddy V instead of you, I might believe it too.;)

1. Find a mentor.
   
2. Attend many camps.
   
3. Watch many games in person.

Those three things will help you a lot more than this place. I have never learned anything major about officiating from here other than what not to listen to.

Peace

With all due respect, I am doing all three of your suggestions, and I still find this forum to be a very valuable resource. No, it is not the end-all be-all of officiating knowledge, but I have found value in it.

You are so over the top. You really need to get out more. Nobody ever said it was okay. It's how I choose to deal with it that's an issue.

This is getting ridiculous. If it doesn't happen in my game, then it just doesn't happen. Now, at the end of the game if somebody on the losing team wants to spout off, and they have been perfect up to that point. It's my judgement if I choose to enforce the rule of law or not and it's got nothing to do with any other official or upholding the profession. Let's say, and I'm sure there are some DI officials who have probably been here. Let's say I'm in Illinois and I got a big game in Florida the next day. This game in Illinois is over, I need to get to the airport and figure out if I'm going to be able to get out because of the weather. You F...king referees suck. Okay, I'll make a note of you and remember that comment the next time I see you. The same with the coach, AC.

Do I believe that this player is going to be a problem for the next crew? Possibly! Depends on how the game goes. He will be a problem no matter if I call the technical today or not. No matter if I toss him or not. Guaranteed, if his team is losing the next game, and he thinks you made a bad call. Here he comes. Case in point, Rasheed Wallace.

JR made a referee to what I believe is a superstar HS player. This is a valid point. Depending on who you are, you may get a pass. I heard Michael Jordan got a lot of passes, so did Larry Bird, Dwayne Wade, Shaquille O'Neil, Lebron James. It's our society. You going to be surprise at the next statement I'm going to make. You get a pass too on this forum JR. You get to say a lot of crap that's way out of line out here about others and nobody checks you. You get to say way more than anybody else, go on and on and on. If I say something in retaliation, my comments gets deleted. My point is, some people do get special treatment. That's just the way it is in this society, and it is across the board.

Get over it!

Here's why I don't think it is "moronic" to include the sprinting to officials as part of the ruling. That act -- sprinting at someone -- is a purposeful act. It communicates to anyone who sees it that there is something urgent and compelling going on; and, from the perspective of the officials, when someone sprints at them, they would have no way of knowing what is about to happen (and not much time to react, in any event). You follow up that purposeful action with a second purposeful action -- yelling profanity at the official -- and you now clearly have an individual who is out of control. Those two purposeful acts (both judged as unsporting), taken together, clearly deserve a flagrant technical foul. My point is that it would be inappropriate to apply that case play as REQUIRING a flagrant technical foul when only some of the elements are present.

I forgive you -- not that you asked for forgiveness -- for (a) jumping to a conclusion about how I call the game, as opposed to officials who call it "correctly," and (b) turning this into a personal attack. I find it ironic that in a thread in which we are discussing how absolutely unacceptable it is for players (and coaches) to personally attack/question officials, to find that officials are doing it to each other....

Please site the rule that states sprinting is a technical foul.

The technical foul is for yelling profanity at the officials. Do you honestly not see that?

What conclusion am I suppose to "jump to" when you defend not ejecting these participants? :confused:

BTW, if you think that was a perosnal attack, you must have a tough time on the floor.

I am glad. :D

Peace

Typical Rut BS.

Dealing with the situation in this case is blowing your whistle and unloading the little punk...something you appear to not have the sack to do.

We are discussing a specific event, not one that can't happen because the big, bad aura of J Rutledge is on the floor...get over yourself already, your arrogance was old a long time ago.

All I can say is it does not happen in the games I work and it does not happen with the games I watch. If that is BS, then it is BS. It is the truth and I think the officials that I watch and work with often are very good at handling situations. We all can call the game it is how you handle situations that separate the wheat from the chaff. Also never said it could not happen, I said it does not happen. I threw out my first coach in over 10 seasons this past January. I was working with a freshman coach and he likely did not have a veteran official like me very often and he never used a single curse word toward me. I also pass a lot of schools to get too many of my games, so I am not sure who I would be afraid of. I will also bet I have put myself in a lot tougher situations than you would ever do on your own. So I take that "fear" comment coming from you as funny.

Peace

Why do I read this and hear, "You want me on that wall, you need me on that wall!"

So you driving to games in downtown Bagdad or something?:rolleyes:

You are not going to work games before me and you will not work games after me. So what you think really is not my concern. Not sure why you give a damn what I do. ;)

Peace

This was the dumbest thread ever.