The crew did nothing...

[JRutledge]

This is totally a judgment call. I would not toss a player either just based on what I read. I was also not there either. He would get a T if I heard him clearly, but not ejected. All a judgment call.

Peace

[Old School]

When I read the OP, it states the official just chuckled about it. He did not think it was that bad, so I don't understand why you are debating it. Whether is was a flagrant T or not is irrelevant b/c both officials passed on the call. If you want to debate flagrant or not. That is a judgment call, not an absolute like JR says. I can toss a coach or player for saying far less than that so whether a flagrant is called or not is judgment.

You and JR need to learn to trust your partners and fellow comrades. What I mean is they are possibly at the end of there night and thinking about the good time they are going to have afterwards. Some player says something completely dumb, and I'm like, if I call this technical, that's going to delay the game that much more, and it's not going to change the outcome. This game is over and I'm not slowing it down to shoot no technicals, got to explain to the coach why, etc., etc. Even though it was well deserved, ain't got time tonight. Got a beautiful honey waiting on me afterwards. I'm going home.

I can't tell you how many times a player or coach has spouted off to me at or near the end of the game, and I just ignored it because it's not going to change the outcome. The only thing it's going to do is delay my leaving that much more. Cause some other undue stuff that I now have to deal with. If my evaluator is there and says why I didn't call that technical. I would say what technical? Didn't you hear that kid on the bench? I'd be like, what kid? What did he say? Damn, if I would have heard that, I would have T him. Have a good night.....

[DC_Ref12]

Originally Posted by Old School

When I read the OP, it states the official just chuckled about it. He did not think it was that bad, so I don't understand why you are debating it. Whether is was a flagrant T or not is irrelevant b/c both officials passed on the call. If you want to debate flagrant or not. That is a judgment call, not an absolute like JR says. I can toss a coach or player for saying far less than that so whether a flagrant is called or not is judgment.

You and JR need to learn to trust your partners and fellow comrades. What I mean is they are possibly at the end of there night and thinking about the good time they are going to have afterwards. Some player says something completely dumb, and I'm like, if I call this technical, that's going to delay the game that much more, and it's not going to change the outcome. This game is over and I'm not slowing it down to shoot no technicals, got to explain to the coach why, etc., etc. Even though it was well deserved, ain't got time tonight. Got a beautiful honey waiting on me afterwards. I'm going home.

I can't tell you how many times a player or coach has spouted off to me at or near the end of the game, and I just ignored it because it's not going to change the outcome. The only thing it's going to do is delay my leaving that much more. Cause some other undue stuff that I now have to deal with. If my evaluator is there and says why I didn't call that technical. I would say what technical? Didn't you hear that kid on the bench? I'd be like, what kid? What did he say? Damn, if I would have heard that, I would have T him. Have a good night.....

I'm speechless.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by DC_Ref12

I'm speechless.

Don't be, apparently that's how it's done in the rec leagues and college intramural programs where OS works.

[SWMOzebra]

Originally Posted by Old School

The only thing it's going to do is delay my leaving that much more. Cause some other undue stuff that I now have to deal with.

So, the technical foul becomes a "game interrupter" that gets a no-call? What about travels and illegal dribbles? By themselves, they're unlikely to change the outcome of a game as well....so do those get no-calls as well?

Don't we, as officials, have a responsibility to call the tightest game that our abilities permit in an unbiased fashion? I readily accept that a large part of our calls are based on judgment and I will certainly admit that mine judgment is not as solid as others with more experience than I, but to say the outcome of a game wouldn't change and use that thinking to justify a no-call is simply a dis-service to the game of basketball.

Maybe I'm reading more into the post than what was meant to be, but I dunno...

[Old School]

Originally Posted by SWMOzebra

So, the technical foul becomes a "game interrupter" that gets a no-call? What about travels and illegal dribbles? By themselves, they're unlikely to change the outcome of a game as well....so do those get no-calls as well?

Don't we, as officials, have a responsibility to call the tightest game that our abilities permit in an unbiased fashion? I readily accept that a large part of our calls are based on judgment and I will certainly admit that mine judgment is not as solid as others with more experience than I, but to say the outcome of a game wouldn't change and use that thinking to justify a no-call is simply a dis-service to the game of basketball.

Maybe I'm reading more into the post than what was meant to be, but I dunno...

No, I just think that sometimes you should trust the people that are responsible to making the call. There maybe other factors that cause the no-call. Like, I just didn't hear it. Friday I had a girls game that was a 30 point blow-out. Late in the game both teams empty there benches and my judgment for fouls in the game changed. I let some contact fouls go because he was time to go home. Neither teams coaches, players or fans said a word. It was obvious unless blood was drawn (figure of speech) there wasn't going to be anymore calls. My point is, as long as everyone's okay with it, you get it over with and you go home. If you are the type that feels like you are not earning your money or doing a disservice to the profession unless you call everything you see, then call it. Just don't be surprise if not everyones see it that way.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

No, I just think that sometimes you should trust the people that are responsible to making the call. There maybe other factors that cause the no-call. Like, I just didn't hear it. Friday I had a girls game that was a 30 point blow-out. Late in the game both teams empty there benches and my judgment for fouls in the game changed. I let some contact fouls go because he was time to go home. Neither teams coaches, players or fans said a word. It was obvious unless blood was drawn (figure of speech) there wasn't going to be anymore calls. My point is, as long as everyone's okay with it, you get it over with and you go home. If you are the type that feels like you are not earning your money or doing a disservice to the profession unless you call everything you see, then call it. Just don't be surprise if not everyones see it that way.

Gee, and earlier you implied you weren't going to make the call (even a technical foul) because you wanted to go home. Apparently, the kids on the bench don't deserve the same kind of officiating as the starters and regular players?
As long as your local YMCA doesn't mind....

[TRef21]

Automatic T. Thats to keep the game of basketball respected.

[blindzebra]

I think it's convenient that many choose to use the, I don't have this problem in my game cop-out.

Of course they don't, because they ignore it, and leave the rest of us to clean up their mess later on...what you allow, you condone.

There is no room for that type of behavior in a HS game or lower, nor is there room for officials that allow it...have the sack to do what is right for the game and your fellow officials or don't officiate.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

I think it's convenient that many choose to use the, I don't have this problem in my game cop-out.

Of course they don't, because they ignore it, and leave the rest of us to clean up their mess later on...what you allow, you condone.

You must have a flagrant T every single game? Or are you advocating a flagrant T every single game is a must? Considering this happens all the time and it is just being ignored all officials have to step up and throw players out for this behavior.

Some officials have a reputation for many things. Maybe the officials that constantly have to deal with this do not know how to deal with people the proper way and only are penalizing behavior. Maybe there are another set of officials that know how to deal with people and they are not getting to the point where they are being cursed out. You think guys like Ed Hightower, Teddy Valentine, Teddy Higgins or Jim Burr do not have a reputation? I will not put myself on the same plane as any of those officials, but I do feel I have a reputation for not tolerating certain behavior and I work with a lot of officials that have similar reputations and no one dares to go there. Also if a team does not know me, they learn rather quickly that I do not put up with BS. All it takes is a little word with a coach and most conflict with players stops, because the coach takes care of it.

Peace

[DC_Ref12]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

but I do feel I have a reputation for not tolerating certain behavior and I work with a lot of officials that have similar reputations and no one dares to go there. Also if a team does not know me, they learn rather quickly that I do not put up with BS. All it takes is a little word with a coach and most conflict with players stops, because the coach takes care of it.

I think I understand what you're saying, JRut, but you got to this point in your career by being tough when it comes to situations like the OP, did you not?

I think perhaps you are looking at it from the perspective of a seasoned, well-known official, which is understandable. But many on this forum haven't been around our leagues/teams/coaches/players as long as you have, we don't have that "reputation" and so your advice really doesn't make any sense. How are you supposed to get to the point where players respect you if you don't lay down the law in these kinds of scenarios? How else are you supposed to build this "reputation" you speak of without being strict in cases like the OP?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by DC_Ref12

I think I understand what you're saying, JRut, but you got to this point in your career by being tough when it comes to situations like the OP, did you not?

I think perhaps you are looking at it from the perspective of a seasoned, well-known official, which is understandable. But many on this forum haven't been around our leagues/teams/coaches/players as long as you have, we don't have that "reputation" and so your advice really doesn't make any sense. How are you supposed to get to the point where players respect you if you don't lay down the law in these kinds of scenarios? How else are you supposed to build this "reputation" you speak of without being strict in cases like the OP?

Reputation has a lot to do with officiating and even helps officials know what type of team you are dealing with as well. I am not telling you something that is in a vacuum. Someone even said that officials with a little bit of grey hair are rarely questioned. It also helps if you are fit, in position and approachable. We all know officials that do not have the best reputations and everything they call is questioned.

Peace

[DC_Ref12]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Reputation has a lot to do with officiating and even helps officials know what type of team you are dealing with as well. I am not telling you something that is in a vacuum. Someone even said that officials with a little bit of grey hair are rarely questioned. It also helps if you are fit, in position and approachable. We all know officials that do not have the best reputations and everything they call is questioned.

Peace

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it almost seems like you are saying in a roundabout way that the OP brought this situation on himself by somehow not having a reputation and/or appearance that earned him respect. Am I wrong?

Sorry, I'm just not grasping what exactly this all has to do with the situation cited in the OP. I understand and appreciate the concept of reputation, but sometimes it's quite possible that you're just gonna have a player that goes nuclear. Then what do you do?

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You must have a flagrant T every single game? Or are you advocating a flagrant T every single game is a must? Considering this happens all the time and it is just being ignored all officials have to step up and throw players out for this behavior.

Some officials have a reputation for many things. Maybe the officials that constantly have to deal with this do not know how to deal with people the proper way and only are penalizing behavior. Maybe there are another set of officials that know how to deal with people and they are not getting to the point where they are being cursed out. You think guys like Ed Hightower, Teddy Valentine, Teddy Higgins or Jim Burr do not have a reputation? I will not put myself on the same plane as any of those officials, but I do feel I have a reputation for not tolerating certain behavior and I work with a lot of officials that have similar reputations and no one dares to go there. Also if a team does not know me, they learn rather quickly that I do not put up with BS. All it takes is a little word with a coach and most conflict with players stops, because the coach takes care of it.

Peace

So did you just admit that the type of behavior in the OP happens in every game you do?

Because that is how I'm reading it.

I don't care what rep Hightower, Valentine, Higgins and Burr have...but I guarantee you a player that screams you are Fing horrible at Teddy is getting whacked, and if it's in a HS game, that player is getting tossed...because it is irrelevant to the topic. I suspect it was just a means to talk about your rep, but that too isn't on topic.

What is on topic is:

1. The player in the OP did commit a flagrant act.

2. An official that ignores it completely is a disgrace to officiating.

3. An official that just T's the player and doesn't eject them, only makes that behavior worse in the long run, thus making all of our jobs that much harder.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

So did you just admit that the type of behavior in the OP happens in every game you do?

Because that is how I'm reading it.

You would be wrong, but that is not the first time.

Originally Posted by blindzebra

I don't care what rep Hightower, Valentine, Higgins and Burr have...but I guarantee you a player that screams you are Fing horrible at Teddy is getting whacked, and if it's in a HS game, that player is getting tossed...because it is irrelevant to the topic. I suspect it was just a means to talk about your rep, but that too isn't on topic.

I have seen Teddy V give Ts left and right. I have never seen him eject someone without two Ts. I am sure there was some profanity in those situations. I will bet money on that one. Actually I cannot think of anyone outside of Rick Barnes that he got rid of. And what did you people do here, say he should have done it.

Originally Posted by blindzebra

What is on topic is:

1. The player in the OP did commit a flagrant act.

2. An official that ignores it completely is a disgrace to officiating.

3. An official that just T's the player and doesn't eject them, only makes that behavior worse in the long run, thus making all of our jobs that much harder.

1. That is an opinion and judgment, not something that we all agree on. I guess if we disagree with you

2. I think it is a disgrace to tell other people what they "should" do because it is not your opinion.

3. Maybe for you because you do not have the ability to deal with the situation. Once again, I cannot think the last time or ever that a player cursed at me. They have said other things, but cursing? No.

Peace