Playoff Tech.
 

Girls District Playoff quarterfinal last night. Team A (#10 seed) is beating Team B (#2 seed) all night. 3 minutes left in the 3rd, Team A up 12. Team B is beginning to get frustrated because they're losing to a team that they shouldn't be losing to. I'm T and we have a tie-up in the corner, my side. I run in as I'm calling the jump ball. B1 ends up with the ball and, as I'm running in, A1 gives B1 what I can only describe as an "elbow shove" to the back. B1 turns around with a pissed off look in her face and the ball in her hands, but she was smart and didn't throw the ball at A1 although she looked like she might. I whacked A1. When the coach asked what the T was for, I told him that it was dead ball contact that, 1) had it been live ball, would have been a common foul or very possibly even an intentional, and 2) was unsportsmanlike towards B1.

Thoughts? One of the officials in my association who was at the game last night mentioned that, because it was a playoff game, maybe I should have held off on the T...anyone agree w/ that philosophy?

No who cares that it is a playoff game. She committed an act that deserved a T give her a T. A T is JUST BUISSNESS. Who cares that it is a playoff I just don't see what that has to do with it. Why should the person get special treatment.

Contact after the whistle has been blown should be ignored unless it is intentional or flagrant. From your description, it sounds like just a common foul, not intentional in nature. Remember you said if the ball was live it would be a common foul. Ignore it! You had a very competitive playoff game. Referee the game like you have been there before, not like you are new. How a player can get two elbows into the back of another player sounds to me like she was hustling and just got caught in an awkward position, related to trying to get the ball. This is apart of the game and you must learn and understand the difference. I understand what the other official was telling you. Don't go looking for problems. Problems of this nature will come to you. Calling intentional fouls that are not obvious to everyone in the gym in a girls game is over officiating. Let the players decide the game. When we're not notice is when we do our best. Girls play ball and they play very smart. Rarely do you see "intentional acts" in girls ball.

I know you said "and very possibly intentional" -- you need to decide that *before* you call the T. IF you decide that it would have been a common foul, then you should have ignored the contact (well, you probalby still should have addressed it, but you shouldn't have called the foul).

While I respect everyone's opinion on this board, if you are going to misquote me and then criticize me for it, keep your opinion to your self. If you would have read the OP, I told the coach it was definitely a common foul, and very possible an intentional foul. And it was not two pushes, it was one push, after the whistle, that had nothing to do with her being in an awkward position and everything about her pushing the other player.

Oh, and by the way, if you're going to actually quote me, why don't you quote the entire thing? Or are you afraid that people will disagree with you if you do?

Bob,

I don't disagree, but it was honestly the reaction of the girl who got pushed that led me to the technical. if she throws the ball in retaliation, there is no way I can go to her coach without also having a technical on the girl who pushed her. And it would have been enough of an elapse of time where a simultaneous techincal would not have been possible.

What did you just say? The reaction of the other player that led you to call a technical foul!!! How the hell did you get a playoff game? Now, if the girl retaliates by throwing the ball at the opponent. Now you can step up and call a double technical!!!! Do you know where the balls going afterwards if you would have called a DT?

If it was severe enough for a call, you made the right one. Trust your judgement.

tmp44,

From your OP it sounds like the push was a deliberate act on the part of A1, and if so it qualifies as intentional on that basis alone. I have no problem with your T in this instance. IMHO it's better to stop this crap immediately than to let it fester & possibly explode into something worse later on. Good job getting in there & keeping it from escalating!

Game getting out of control. You had to get things in control. You can't let one team start taking cheap shots. It only escalates from there. That would make for a very ugly 4th quarter.

You were there. You got things under control. You did the right thing.

Old School said- I disagree with pretty much EVERYTHING you said here.
1)so we should worry about what the fans see?
2) agreed
3)Outright lie. We always get noticed no matter what we do, half the fans in the gym are yelling about something.
4) do you ref girls? If a girls gets pushed or shoved, you better watch the play at the other end, because I have heard the girls say "that b!tch isn't getting away with that" I have seen a girl get foulded on a lay up and turn and push the girl who fouled her.

Girls are way worse at retaliation.

Does this mean you only call intentional or flagrant technical fouls? This must be some new form of game management -- call no dead ball contact until the game is beyond control.

I'll think I'll try it!:D

tmp44, I think when you see the situation occur you know if it warrants a T or not and that judgement is usually correct. I have only had one T on a player in the past 4 years and it was a flailing elbow/armswing just after I called a foul against a player who just contacted the player I T'd up. Like I said, when I saw it, I knew it was a T. It would have been if it was in a 7th grade game or a state championship game.

I had two dead ball contact T's this season in my games. My partner called one in a varsity girls game after a held ball when one of the participants threw an elbow before getting off the floor.
My other one was a 7th grade girls game, girl got fouled pretty hard. We had the whistle immediately, but I as soon as I'd closed in about two steps the fouled girl retaliated with a solid shove. Easy T. Her coach didn't seem to agree, but managed to keep it to himself mostly.

You should try it, because it's the rule. See 4-19-1 Note.

If the contact is intentional or flagrant during a dead ball, it's a technical foul. Please tell me what other types fo dead ball contact there are and how you'd punish them.

And then see Bob's reference again.

If the ball is dead, you can't call a personal foul. It has to be a technical foul if anything. The rule (see Bob's post above for the reference) says it must be intentional or flagrant to call it.
Now, a purposeful shove or elbow definitely falls into the "intentional" category and allows you to call the technical foul here.

Shows what you know. When officials are hardly noticed in the game is when we do our best. Haven't you ever heard someone say I barely knew you guys where out there. That's because it was a good game, players played and everybody's attention was on the game. There was not much that needed to be called, and the best point, when a call needed to be made, you make it, nobody's got any complaints because everybody saw the say thing. The offcials are on top of it today.

I can't believe you said this. If you really believe this, than I got some land in Florida for sale.

Old school do you referee girls basketball?

I still completely disagree with EVERYTHING you said. PERIOD. I am not even sure you are an official.

No I have never seen a game where anyone said " I didn't even know you guys were there".

I go to over 100 basketball games a year. I have for over 10 years. NEVER are the officials ignored.

For some reason, my previous post is gone. :mad:

It sounds like the OP did what is right. If anyone doesn't make a call because it is a playoff or big game, that official is a coward. I don't understand why the importance - to the teams - of a game means some things would be overlooked. Doesn't add up to me.

I'm squarely in the camp that believes Old School doesn't referee at all. :D

I wish to refer you to the context of my original comment -- a sarcastic response to OS. Of course, dead ball fouls must be technical; however, the genius that is OS, master of the NBA, D-1, all levels/genders of HS, does not call a T unless it is flagrant or intentional. Clearly, his mastery of game management exceeds my ability to bow before it.:D :rolleyes:

This ties for....

Jurassic Referee, where did you find that "smile?"

Push the "quote" button on my post and you'll see the web site.

Try 1000smilies.com too

From his very own lips.....

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...533#post359533

Rec leagues for 10 years before he even opened a rule book......:D

Old School has also stated in another post that he's done well over 10,000 games since 1990. He's also posted that he's a college official and an assignor.

You're up to date now. Please show the proper respect.

This just proves that he does not know what he is talking about.

Peace

When I think about games like the SuperBowl or FF games, it seems to me that the games are officiated the same way. Players and coaches are used to regular season officiating. Why change philosophy becuase it's a playoff game. Granted, playoff officials will be used, who might have an advanced understanding implementing rules, but I don't think you should change a call because it's a playoff game.

In playoff games I've done, it's been obvious to me that the players and coaches *really* want a game flow, so I am extra sure that I don't hinder that notion. :)

If crap happens and you don't deal with it, it will re-appear.

You probably could have left number 1 out your explanation and just stuck with number 2. A1 shoved B1 during a deadball. That's an easy T to call and requires very little explanation. Play-off or not is really of no consequence.

I would recommend seeing the whole play. Yes the ball is dead but you don't have to be quick on the TECH. You may be able to talk your way out of it. If she throws the ball at the player you have a flagrant technical and she is ejected. If it's a stare down then 50/50 you could have something. If I had stare down I would issue a double technical to send a message, so both can get put into the light. Did you tech B1 for the elbow? If not then I feel A should not have been teched since contact was initiated on her. I would be mad to if some gave me an elbow. But that's me. We all have different judgment and none of us where there. So we can only go with what we are mentally picturing right now. In your case I would not have teched. Please read the situation I had the past year and tell me what you would do.


I had a situation in a JC game this year where the home team comes back from 20 down and loses by 3. Home team wanted time out on an interrupted dribble, the ball is stolen and scored on the other end. I grant the home time out and the coach came running up to me yelling I wanted time out. I gave him options. Let me tell you why I can't grant the time out to you. He was like dont talk to me. He was walking back to his huddle and said F YOU. So I wack him. Some say I'm right some say I should have bit since that possible lost the game for them in a consolation championship. Two DI guys said you gave him options. No matter if they fans can't hear it and it was regarded towards you and you need to draw the line.

In tmp44's scenario, B1 did not throw an elbow and did not throw the basketball at anybody. You only give Tech's if 2 people do something wrong? :confused:

Some, like me, would say that's a flagrant technical foul.

Thanks Bro! I miss read the info. LOL
;)