Pre-game this play...

[ronny mulkey]

Any help that you could give me with this play would be greatly appreciated.

Have been calling throughout the playoffs with 2 young lower level Men's offcials, while I am, at best, an old timey high school offcial. I want to be able to discuss this play without appearing to be even more old timey that I am.

A1 is dribbling up the tableside sideline toward his frontcourt
I am T
B1 and B2 are ready to trap once A1 gets into the frontcourt
When A1 gets into his frontcourt, he uses a screen by A2 to dribble alongside the division line
B3 comes over to create a closely guarded situation
I am in the backcourt and stay on the play/ count until A1 picks up dribble, he is past the opposite free throw lane line extended
When A1 picks up dribble, I am standing in the center circle.
I go offball and I notice that L has rotated and that we have no coverage whatsoever in the tableside half of the court

I have about 3 questions with this play:

1. How far over from the sideline do you go to indicate that you still have a count?
2. If you were the L, would you initiate a rotation with your T in this position?
3. If a turnover occurred, what would you expect from your L if he has rotated?

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by ronny mulkey

Any help that you could give me with this play would be greatly appreciated.

Have been calling throughout the playoffs with 2 young lower level Men's offcials, while I am, at best, an old timey high school offcial. I want to be able to discuss this play without appearing to be even more old timey that I am.

A1 is dribbling up the tableside sideline toward his frontcourt
I am T
B1 and B2 are ready to trap once A1 gets into the frontcourt
When A1 gets into his frontcourt, he uses a screen by A2 to dribble alongside the division line
B3 comes over to create a closely guarded situation
I am in the backcourt and stay on the play/ count until A1 picks up dribble, he is past the opposite free throw lane line extended
When A1 picks up dribble, I am standing in the center circle.
I go offball and I notice that L has rotated and that we have no coverage whatsoever in the tableside half of the court

I have about 3 questions with this play:

1. How far over from the sideline do you go to indicate that you still have a count?
2. If you were the L, would you initiate a rotation with your T in this position?
3. If a turnover occurred, what would you expect from your L if he has rotated?

That is still your area of coverage. You can come over at least to the middle of the court to referee that play. The C can help you out from the back side and the Lead should stay where he is, in close down mode, ready to rotate. If I was the lead, I probably wouldnt rotated because the new trail would have to bust his but to get to the endline.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

That is still your area of coverage. You can come over at least to the middle of the court to referee that play. The C can help you out from the back side and the Lead should stay where he is, in close down mode, ready to rotate. If I was the lead, I probably wouldnt rotated because the new trail would have to bust his but to get to the endline.

Huh? Are you saying the L should wait for the T to end/stop the count before rotating and this should be the determining factor for the L's rotation? Say it isn't so.

Maybe I'm confused, but it basically sounds like the OP stayed with the count although the player with the ball was now in the C's primary. If my thinking is correct, it really has little to do with the L rotating. For instance, the ball is on the opposite side and possibly there are post players on the opposite side. The L will not, and should not, wait for the L to finish a count before rotating.

1. I would go far enough so it is obvious that I'm maintaining my count and the play.
2. If I was L, it is possible that I'm not concerned with the T's count and would rotate because of the play.
3. I would expect to be the new trail on whatever side he is on when the ball goes the other way.

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Huh?

Maybe I'm confused, but it basically sounds like the OP stayed with the count although the player with the ball was now in the C's primary. If my thinking is correct, it really has little to do with the L rotating. For instance, the ball in on the opposite side and possibly there are post players on the opposite side. The L will not, and should not, wait for the L to finish a count before rotating.

1. I would go far enough so it is obvious that I'm maintaining my count and the play.
2. If I was L, it is possible that I'm not concerned with the T's count and would rotate because of the play.
3. I would expect to be the new trail on whatever side he is on when the ball goes the other way.

Your area of responsibility as the new trail goes from the opposite free throw (blocks) all the way to half court. So you need to stay with that play.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

Your area of responsibility as the new trail goes from the opposite free throw (blocks) all the way to half court. So you need to stay with that play.

And you are telling me this because?
I must be totally confused. The way I read the OP he stayed with the count, which is correct. If keeping the count means staying with it when it goes out of your area, so be it. Still, this doesn't mean the L should stay put until the T stops the count. I thought that was one of the main questions.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by tomegun

1. I would go far enough so it is obvious that I'm maintaining my count and the play.
2. If I was L, it is possible that I'm not concerned with the T's count and would rotate because of the play.
3. I would expect to be the new trail on whatever side he is on when the ball goes the other way.

Agree, just would add for #3 be prepared to cross over if your rotation was missed by both partners (not everyone will do it this btw, some prefer to let the new L & C figure it out on their own. I don't.)

[BLydic]

I've been taught, as the L, to rotate only after both partners are in the frontcourt. I'm also not a proponent of being in the center of the court as the T once we get in the frontcourt. I tend to move towards the sideline, even if I have to maintain a closely guarded count.

[BLydic]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Agree, just would add for #3 be prepared to cross over if your rotation was missed by both partners (not everyone will do it this btw, some prefer to let the new L & C figure it out on their own. I don't.)

A little eye contact between the new L and C, in transition, is not a bad thing to do. It could avoid to L's and the new T can fill in as needed.

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by ronny mulkey

I have about 3 questions with this play:

1. How far over from the sideline do you go to indicate that you still have a count?
2. If you were the L, would you initiate a rotation with your T in this position?
3. If a turnover occurred, what would you expect from your L if he has rotated?

I'm not completely sure that I understand the picture you painted, but I will assume that I do.

I pregame that if the C even thinks there might be a trap, he should slide up and be ready to officiate the trap. That tells the L to crossover to the C's side (it's referred to as a C-initiated rotation). If the C waits until the trap happens, he's too late to help the T.

1) The C or T always stays with a 5-second count until it ends, even if the ball goes out of your primary. Yes, this means that we will occasionally having the C and T both watching the same play. As T in 3-person, I work on the court a little bit but I never go past the FT lane-line extended on my side. As had been posted before, the C and the T have to have great non-verbal communication to show when one is taking the play and when one is giving it up. Another part of my pregame is finding out what my partners do to show that they are picking up a play (some people step up, some give a false count, some turn their bodies......)

2) It's actually the C that initiates this rotation by coming up to H/C and reffing the trap.

3) I always expect the "old T and C" to look back to see which side the new trail is on. That is part of my pregame. I think it looks horrible for the new T to cross from one side to the other to balance the floor.

[RushmoreRef]

Originally Posted by BLydic

I've been taught, as the L, to rotate only after both partners are in the frontcourt. I'm also not a proponent of being in the center of the court as the T once we get in the frontcourt. I tend to move towards the sideline, even if I have to maintain a closely guarded count.

If you are the T and taking the full 60% of the court you have to work on the court because that is the only way to officiate the play....

As far as the rotation goes, I'd be hesitant as the Lead to go if the T hasn't made his way into the frontcourt......I have no problem with the C and T officiating the way they were on this play because in the description there are 5 players in the vicinity of the T, he needs that C to help out.

If we get quick transition, the T must be confident that there has been no rotation because he never entered the frontcourt, but you also have two guys that can work the transition, if you end with two leads that's not a problem that can't be fixed quickly.....I think that when the dribble ends and you went off-ball that's when L should have went and not before. JMO

[tomegun]

What if, the player is dribbling over to that side because the only two post players are on the block and two other players are in the corner?

Better yet:

1. What reason would you have, as the L, for rotating?
2. As the L, what would you be looking at in this situation if you have four players in the paint?

[BLydic]

Originally Posted by tomegun

What if, the player is dribbling over to that side because the only two post players are on the block and two other players are in the corner?

Are you asking this in regards to positioning as the T or L?

Originally Posted by tomegun

1. What reason would you have, as the L, for rotating?
2. As the L, what would you be looking at in this situation if you have four players in the paint?

1. To be ball side with 5 players.

2. While rotating, the L can still ref the paint.