Foul on throw-in after jump violation

[Lotto]

OK, here's the situation. Jumper A1 catches the toss. Violation. After handing B1 the ball for a throw-in, B2 fouls A2. It's now A's ball out of bounds.

Question: Which way do we set the arrow?

Here's what the NCAA rule book says about the situation. After Rule 6.2-2, we have the following:

A.R. 3. During the opening jump ball, A1 illegally catches the tossed ball. The referee
blows the whistle and awards the ball to B1 at the designated spot. How is the alternating-
possession arrow established? RULING: The first legal possession is by B1 on
the throw-in. As soon as the throw-in by Team B ends, the direction of the alternating possession
arrow shall be changed to that of Team A.

Note the wording---"As soon as the throw-in by Team B ends..." Here the throw-in never ended!

The only thing that seems fair to me is to have the arrow pointing to B (as opposed to leaving it unset and having a jump ball on the next tie-up). Can someone give me a rule reference to back this thinking up (other than Rule 2.3, that is...).

Thanks!

[bigwhistle]

Lotto,

When in doubt, always check your definitions. They are the foundation for all rules.

Rule 4-2.2 The AP procedure starts when an official places the ball at the disposal of a player for a throw-in and ENDS WHEN THE THROW-IN IS COMPLETED OR WHEN THE THROW-IN TEMA COMMITS A VIOLATION.

In this instance, neither criteria was met. Therefore Team B will still have the arrow.

[Lotto]

Originally posted by bigwhistle

When in doubt, always check your definitions. They are the foundation for all rules.

Rule 4-2.2 The AP procedure starts when an official places the ball at the disposal of a player for a throw-in and ENDS WHEN THE THROW-IN IS COMPLETED OR WHEN THE THROW-IN TEMA COMMITS A VIOLATION.

In this instance, neither criteria was met. Therefore Team B will still have the arrow.

However, it is not clear to me (from the rules) that this is an AP throw-in. Note that the rulebook doesn't say to set the arrow to B and then to follow the AP procedure. It just indicates that since the first legal possession goes to B, then the arrow goes to A.

In fact, maybe this is the right way to look at it. If we have the scenario that I've outlined, then A gets the ball out of bounds and hence the first legal possession in bounds will be by A. By the same kind of logic that is stated in the Approved Ruline, that would cause the AP arrow to be set to B.

[Mark Padgett]

Under NF rules, the arrow is set for B when A1 catches the ball because that established first possession. Because the catch is a violation, B then gets the throw-in but it is not an AP throw-in, so you would use normal foul procedure after that. The subsequent foul and throw-in have nothing to do with the AP arrow.

[Lotto]

Oops...I forgot to say that I was going by NCAA rules, which is what we use here in NY for high school.

[BktBallRef]

So get NY to change to NF rules and your delimna is solved!

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Lotto
Oops...I forgot to say that I was going by NCAA rules, which is what we use here in NY for high school.

Whoa, hold on there Mr. Lotto. NY *girls* HS use slightly
modified NCAA rules. NY *boys* HS use NF rules.

[Lotto]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Whoa, hold on there Mr. Lotto. NY *girls* HS use slightly
modified NCAA rules. NY *boys* HS use NF rules.

Sorry Dan, my bad. I only do girls' games here and I thought boys used NCAA rules as well. Thanks for setting me straight.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Lotto

Sorry Dan, my bad. I only do girls' games here and I thought boys used NCAA rules as well. Thanks for setting me straight.

No biggie! BTW, get your fingerprints yet?

[walter]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett
Under NF rules, the arrow is set for B when A1 catches the ball because that established first possession. Because the catch is a violation, B then gets the throw-in but it is not an AP throw-in, so you would use normal foul procedure after that. The subsequent foul and throw-in have nothing to do with the AP arrow.

Mark, you nailed it again. The throw in for B is not an AP throw-in. They get the ball because of A's violation. The foul doesn't affect the arrow either way. If however, it was an AP throw-in, they don't lose the arrow on a foul.