I'll give you what you want

[KCRef]

At a men's rec league last night we had a 3/4 court pass by A1 to A2 who caught the ball just inbounds near the sideline. B2 makes a little contact with A2, but enough to push him out (while A2 is holding the ball). My partner blows his whistle and says, "We're staying here, A's ball." The B team of course questions the call because A2 went out with the ball, but the ref is saying out on B2, who never touched the ball. My partner didn't like the complaining, so he baits them by saying, "What call do you want?" To which the B team replies, "B2 never even touched the ball, how could it be out on him?", which everyone in the gym knew to be true. With this comment, my partner yelled to the table, "OK, I've got a foul on B2," and then he administered the throw-in. This happened twice in this game against the same team.

Now, I know this is not right, not even in a men's rec league, but my question is, what do I say to B3 when he comes up to me and says, "That is not right. He can't do that," without hanging your partner out to dry?

After the game my partner did mention it to me and explained why he tried not to call the foul, and I told him that I personally would have called the push, to which he repeated how he didn't want to call a ticky-tac foul. I said OK.

[Nevadaref]

This is why I don't "save" fouls. There is no longer an NBA "force-out" rule.

This is either incidental contact and Team B's ball after the OOB violation by A2 or a pushing foul on B2 and thus Team A's ball.

Not all hard contact is a foul and just because someone is put at a disadvantage by minor contact doesn't make that a foul.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Not all hard contact is a foul and just because someone is put at a disadvantage by minor contact doesn't make that a foul.

That part I'll disagree with. If contact does put someone at a disadvantage, it should be a foul. If no one gains or loses an advantage through contact, it shouldn't be a foul.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

That part I'll disagree with. If contact does put someone at a disadvantage, it should be a foul. If no one gains or loses an advantage through contact, it shouldn't be a foul.

Unless of course it's legal contact. Legal contact is never a foul.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Unless of course it's legal contact. Legal contact is never a foul.

True dat. As always, and related to the play being discussed, a judgement call.

[Nevadaref]

JR,
I've had this discussion with numerous officials.

Here is my opinion:
There is a certain threshold that contact has to cross before it can be ajudged a foul. If the level of the contact is below that, then it isn't a foul. Period.

When the contact is above that level, then it may or may not be a foul. The official needs to NOW consider advantage/disadvantage to determine if a foul should be called.

The reverse process doesn't cut it for me. I argue that an official cannot say that just because someone gets slightly brushed and falls to the floor that the slight brush is a foul. If the player had maintained his position and that contact would not be called a foul, then it still should not be a foul just because the opponent fell down. One cannot see a disadvantage and then call a foul for some minor contact.

It is not right to penalize based upon the actions of the other player. Otherwise, flopping and exaggerating the severity of contact would be rewarded. The contact itself must be judged by itself first and then step two should be applied. If you don't have A, then you don't go to B.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

JR,
I've had this discussion with numerous officials.

Here is my opinion:
There is a certain threshold that contact has to cross before it can be ajudged a foul. If the level of the contact is below that, then it isn't a foul. Period.

When the contact is above that level, then it may or may not be a foul. The official needs to NOW consider advantage/disadvantage to determine if a foul should be called.

The reverse process doesn't cut it for me. I argue that an official cannot say that just because someone gets slightly brushed and falls to the floor that the slight brush is a foul. If the player had maintained his position and that contact would not be called a foul, then it still should not be a foul just because the opponent fell down. One cannot see a disadvantage and then call a foul for some minor contact.

It is not right to penalize based upon the actions of the other player. Otherwise, flopping and exaggerating the severity of contact would be rewarded. The contact itself must be judged by itself first and then step two should be applied. If you don't have A, then you don't go to B.

IMO, there's a difference between contact causing a disadvantage, and a player acting as if contact caused a disadvantage. Making that distinction is why we get paid the big bucks.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

IMO, there's a difference between contact causing a disadvantage, and a player acting as if contact caused a disadvantage. Making that distinction is why we get paid the big bucks.

Exactly. And the severity of the contact isn't always a factor either. The fact that a disadvantage resulted from the contact is.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Here is my opinion:
There is a certain threshold that contact has to cross before it can be ajudged a foul. If the level of the contact is below that, then it isn't a foul. Period.

When the contact is above that level, then it may or may not be a foul. The official needs to NOW consider advantage/disadvantage to determine if a foul should be called.

What about the slight contact on the shooter's elbow during the jump shot? I'm sure that would be quite a bit less than the contact we're talking about where a player gets bumped and falls OOB. So since it is below that threshold, this would never be a foul?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

That part I'll disagree with. If contact does put someone at a disadvantage, it should be a foul. If no one gains or loses an advantage through contact, it shouldn't be a foul.

JR:

Thank you. Well said.

MTD, Sr.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by KCRef

At a men's rec league last night we had a 3/4 court pass by A1 to A2 who caught the ball just inbounds near the sideline. B2 makes a little contact with A2, but enough to push him out (while A2 is holding the ball). My partner blows his whistle and says, "We're staying here, A's ball." The B team of course questions the call because A2 went out with the ball, but the ref is saying out on B2, who never touched the ball. My partner didn't like the complaining, so he baits them by saying, "What call do you want?" To which the B team replies, "B2 never even touched the ball, how could it be out on him?", which everyone in the gym knew to be true. With this comment, my partner yelled to the table, "OK, I've got a foul on B2," and then he administered the throw-in. This happened twice in this game against the same team.

Now, I know this is not right, not even in a men's rec league, but my question is, what do I say to B3 when he comes up to me and says, "That is not right. He can't do that," without hanging your partner out to dry?

In a men's rec league game, I can see going with the "force out" call. I'm more apt to let them play through some contact, and in a situation like this, I might be tempted to make the "easy" call. If the team that was saved a foul complains, then change the call to a foul.

Now, when B3 comes up to you, as the non-calling official, simply say, "Nothing in the rules says he can't change his call." If they keep going, feel free to hold the game up for a second and say, "You know, he tried to save you guys a foul on that and you wouldn't let him. By arguing with him, you forced him to make the correct call by the rule book."

[tomegun]

Snaq, while I understand where you are coming from that is bad practice. Working the same everytime out is the better practice.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Snaq, while I understand where you are coming from that is bad practice. Working the same everytime out is the better practice.

You're right, but....
We don't ref every game the same. I don't do a 7th grade girls game the same way I did tonights 5A JV boys game. Now, that said, I stay within the rules in all of them; it's just that the rules allow for more severe contact when the players are stronger and faster and more balanced. I realize I'm talking about, essentially, ignoring a call and going with a (gasp) makeup call; and I'm not comfortable with it when put into those words. I have to admit it's what it is, though.

That said, I can understand how some would do it at the adult rec-league level. And, if someone from the fouling team (that my partner just saved a foul) comes b!tching to me about how my partner can't do that, I'm not going to have a lot of sympathy if they just whined themselves into the correct call.

Maybe that's why I don't do rec ball; I'd get eaten alive.

[tomegun]

Rec ball is the same old problem to me. If we all did it right, the players would adjust or someone in the league would get different officials. If we all were on the same page they would either adjust or play the games with no refs.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Rec ball is the same old problem to me. If we all did it right, the players would adjust or someone in the league would get different officials. If we all were on the same page they would either adjust or play the games with no refs.

True. And assignors also have to back their officials up when they do it right.