The Official Forum
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Show 100 post(s) from this thread on one page

The Official Forum (https://forum.officiating.com/)
-   Basketball (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/)
-   -   I'll give you what you want (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/31796-ill-give-you-what-you-want.html)

Jurassic Referee Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Yes, but not setting aside a rule because not all contact is a foul by the rules.
Contact that hinders an opponent from performing normal offensive movements <b>is</b> a foul though. I don't know about your judgment, but if I see a player with the ball pushed out of bounds, I'm gonna probably judge that the push is kinda hindering the player with the ball from performing <b>any</b> offensive movements.

tomegun Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:53am
Nevada, I think you are either getting caught up with someone talking about incidental contact or focusing on the rulebook too much.
In this particular instance, if a player is pushed out of bounds the onus should not be on them to keep from violating. Ask yourself this, "What did the offensive player do to violate?" Did the offensive player violate on his/her own?

Nevadaref Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Contact that hinders an opponent from performing normal offensive movements is a foul though. I don't know about your judgment, but if I see a player with the ball pushed out of bounds, I'm gonna probably judge that the push is kinda hindering the player with the ball from performing any offensive movements.
And if that player tries to go between a defender and the boundary line when there is less than three feet of space there?

Dan_ref Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
And if that player tries to go between a defender and the boundary line when there is less than three feet of space there?
...and he's pushed by a defender and ends up OOB?

That's a foul.

Jurassic Referee Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
And if that player tries to go between a defender and the boundary line when there is less than three feet of space there?
Whatinthehell does that have to do with the play we're discussing?

Try reversing it. If a <b>defender</b> tries to go between an offensive player, who is standing with the ball, and the boundary line when there is less than 3' of space, and the defender shoves the player with the ball OOB while doing so, or makes the player with the ball travel, according to what you've posted so far that <b>isn't</b> a foul. Correct?

M&M Guy Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Here is my opinion:
There is a certain threshold that contact has to cross before it can be ajudged a foul. If the level of the contact is below that, then it isn't a foul. Period.

When the contact is above that level, then it may or may not be a foul. The official needs to NOW consider advantage/disadvantage to determine if a foul should be called.
What about the slight contact on the shooter's elbow during the jump shot? I'm sure that would be quite a bit less than the contact we're talking about where a player gets bumped and falls OOB. So since it is below that threshold, this would never be a foul?

Nevadaref Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Whatinthehell does that have to do with the play we're discussing?

Try reversing it. If a defender tries to go between an offensive player, who is standing with the ball, and the boundary line when there is less than 3' of space, and the defender shoves the player with the ball OOB while doing so, or makes the player with the ball travel, according to what you've posted so far that isn't a foul. Correct?
Because if there is contact on that play and the offensive player ends up OOB as a result of it, the violation is probably the correct call. That seems to be contrary to the thinking of most people who have responded so far in this thread. The prevailing thought seems to be that since the contact caused a violation, then it should be a foul on the defender. Looking that the following two passages that doesn't seem to be true.

"A dribbler shall not charge into nor contact an opponent in his/her path nor attempt to dribble between two opponents or between an opponent and a boundary, unless the space is such as to provide a reasonable chance for him or her to go through without contact."

"There must be reasonable space between two defensive players or a defensive player and a boundary line to allow the dribbler to continue in his/her path. If there is less than 3 feet of space, the dribbler has the greater responsibility for the contact."

Dan_ref Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Because if there is contact on that play and the offensive player ends up OOB as a result of it, the violation is probably the correct call. That seems to be contrary to the thinking of most people who have responded so far in this thread. The prevailing thought seems to be that since the contact caused a violation, then it should be a foul on the defender. Looking that the following two passages that doesn't seem to be true.

"A dribbler shall not charge into nor contact an opponent in his/her path nor attempt to dribble between two opponents or between an opponent and a boundary, unless the space is such as to provide a reasonable chance for him or her to go through without contact."

"There must be reasonable space between two defensive players or a defensive player and a boundary line to allow the dribbler to continue in his/her path. If there is less than 3 feet of space, the dribbler has the greater responsibility for the contact."
Neither of these passages says that a defender gets a free shot at the dribbler who finds himself in these situations.

If the defender illegally contacts the dribbler (includes but not limited to push, shove, bump, move into, tickle, kick or punch) and that contact causes the dribbler to go OOB it is a foul.

Period.

M&M Guy Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
If the defender illegally contacts the dribbler (includes but not limited to push, shove, bump, move into, <font color = red>tickle</font color>, kick or punch) and that contact causes the dribbler to go OOB it is a foul.

Period.
Actually, I had this many years ago in a MS game. A1 was trying to keep the ball away from B1, so B1 reaches out and tickles A1's armpits. A1 drops the ball, B1 picks it up, and we go the other way.

I think I was laughing too hard to blow the whistle.

I know better now. :D

chartrusepengui Tue Feb 13, 2007 01:04pm
who said the defender was within 3 feet of the sideline, and got there first?

Jurassic Referee Tue Feb 13, 2007 02:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Because if there is contact on that play and the offensive player ends up OOB as a result of it, the violation is probably the correct call.
Only in your world.....:rolleyes:

Adam Tue Feb 13, 2007 02:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KCRef
At a men's rec league last night we had a 3/4 court pass by A1 to A2 who caught the ball just inbounds near the sideline. B2 makes a little contact with A2, but enough to push him out (while A2 is holding the ball). My partner blows his whistle and says, "We're staying here, A's ball.":eek: The B team of course questions the call because A2 went out with the ball, but the ref is saying out on B2, who never touched the ball. My partner didn't like the complaining, so he baits them by saying, "What call do you want?" To which the B team replies, "B2 never even touched the ball, how could it be out on him?", which everyone in the gym knew to be true. With this comment, my partner yelled to the table, "OK, I've got a foul on B2," and then he administered the throw-in. This happened twice in this game against the same team.

Now, I know this is not right, not even in a men's rec league, but my question is, what do I say to B3 when he comes up to me and says, "That is not right. He can't do that," without hanging your partner out to dry?
In a men's rec league game, I can see going with the "force out" call. I'm more apt to let them play through some contact, and in a situation like this, I might be tempted to make the "easy" call. If the team that was saved a foul complains, then change the call to a foul.

Now, when B3 comes up to you, as the non-calling official, simply say, "Nothing in the rules says he can't change his call." If they keep going, feel free to hold the game up for a second and say, "You know, he tried to save you guys a foul on that and you wouldn't let him. By arguing with him, you forced him to make the correct call by the rule book."

tomegun Tue Feb 13, 2007 04:47pm
Snaq, while I understand where you are coming from that is bad practice. Working the same everytime out is the better practice.

Adam Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomegun
Snaq, while I understand where you are coming from that is bad practice. Working the same everytime out is the better practice.
You're right, but.... ;)
We don't ref every game the same. I don't do a 7th grade girls game the same way I did tonights 5A JV boys game. Now, that said, I stay within the rules in all of them; it's just that the rules allow for more severe contact when the players are stronger and faster and more balanced. I realize I'm talking about, essentially, ignoring a call and going with a (gasp) makeup call; and I'm not comfortable with it when put into those words. I have to admit it's what it is, though.

That said, I can understand how some would do it at the adult rec-league level. And, if someone from the fouling team (that my partner just saved a foul) comes b!tching to me about how my partner can't do that, I'm not going to have a lot of sympathy if they just whined themselves into the correct call.

Maybe that's why I don't do rec ball; I'd get eaten alive.

tomegun Wed Feb 14, 2007 08:56am
Rec ball is the same old problem to me. If we all did it right, the players would adjust or someone in the league would get different officials. If we all were on the same page they would either adjust or play the games with no refs.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:59am.
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Show 100 post(s) from this thread on one page



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1