I'll give you what you want
 

At a men's rec league last night we had a 3/4 court pass by A1 to A2 who caught the ball just inbounds near the sideline. B2 makes a little contact with A2, but enough to push him out (while A2 is holding the ball). My partner blows his whistle and says, "We're staying here, A's ball.":eek: The B team of course questions the call because A2 went out with the ball, but the ref is saying out on B2, who never touched the ball. My partner didn't like the complaining, so he baits them by saying, "What call do you want?" To which the B team replies, "B2 never even touched the ball, how could it be out on him?", which everyone in the gym knew to be true. With this comment, my partner yelled to the table, "OK, I've got a foul on B2," and then he administered the throw-in. This happened twice in this game against the same team.

Now, I know this is not right, not even in a men's rec league, but my question is, what do I say to B3 when he comes up to me and says, "That is not right. He can't do that," without hanging your partner out to dry?

After the game my partner did mention it to me and explained why he tried not to call the foul, and I told him that I personally would have called the push, to which he repeated how he didn't want to call a ticky-tac foul. I said OK.

This is why I don't "save" fouls. There is no longer an NBA "force-out" rule.

This is either incidental contact and Team B's ball after the OOB violation by A2 or a pushing foul on B2 and thus Team A's ball.

Not all hard contact is a foul and just because someone is put at a disadvantage by minor contact doesn't make that a foul.

That part I'll disagree with. If contact does put someone at a <b>disadvantage</b>, it should be a foul. If no one gains or loses an advantage through contact, it shouldn't be a foul.

Unless of course it's legal contact. Legal contact is never a foul.

JR,
I've had this discussion with numerous officials.

Here is my opinion:
There is a certain threshold that contact has to cross before it can be ajudged a foul. If the level of the contact is below that, then it isn't a foul. Period.

When the contact is above that level, then it may or may not be a foul. The official needs to NOW consider advantage/disadvantage to determine if a foul should be called.

The reverse process doesn't cut it for me. I argue that an official cannot say that just because someone gets slightly brushed and falls to the floor that the slight brush is a foul. If the player had maintained his position and that contact would not be called a foul, then it still should not be a foul just because the opponent fell down. One cannot see a disadvantage and then call a foul for some minor contact.

It is not right to penalize based upon the actions of the other player. Otherwise, flopping and exaggerating the severity of contact would be rewarded. The contact itself must be judged by itself first and then step two should be applied. If you don't have A, then you don't go to B.

IMO, there's a difference between contact causing a disadvantage, and a player acting as if contact caused a disadvantage. Making that distinction is why we get paid the big bucks.

Exactly. And the severity of the contact isn't always a factor either. The fact that a disadvantage resulted from the contact is.

True dat. As always, and related to the play being discussed, a judgement call.

One of the reasons we don't have "force outs" is because we do have fouls caused by contact that creates a disadvantage for a player - especially one with the ball. If minor contact caused the player to violate - blow the whistle and call the foul.

Nevada, I'm trying to think this through. Do you believe in Rhythm, Speed, Balance and Quickness? That concept has nothing to do with the severity of contact and everything to do with how if effects a player.

I do, but I don't fully subscribe to the NBA philosophy.

This is the perfect example for me. Minor contact that results in violation is not always a foul for me.

Frequently, I will believe that the violating player should have been strong enough to play through that level of contact and that the defender shouldn't be penalized for it. I will blow the whistle and call the violation.

I don't know. Regardless of the offensive player's strength, if the contact caused a violation it is probably enough to call a foul. You are putting the onus on the offensive player to be strong and letting the defender off the hook.

Yet, now you are going on how strong you believe a player should be and setting aside a rule aren't you? How do you determine how much is too much and how much is not enough consistently. Do you also take the physical size of a player in account. Can a small guy beat on a big guy more than a big guy can beat on a small guy? (or girl)

Yes, but not setting aside a rule because not all contact is a foul by the rules.
Judgment.
Yes.
Yes.

Contact that hinders an opponent from performing normal offensive movements <b>is</b> a foul though. I don't know about your judgment, but if I see a player with the ball pushed out of bounds, I'm gonna probably judge that the push is kinda hindering the player with the ball from performing <b>any</b> offensive movements.

Nevada, I think you are either getting caught up with someone talking about incidental contact or focusing on the rulebook too much.
In this particular instance, if a player is pushed out of bounds the onus should not be on them to keep from violating. Ask yourself this, "What did the offensive player do to violate?" Did the offensive player violate on his/her own?

And if that player tries to go between a defender and the boundary line when there is less than three feet of space there?

...and he's pushed by a defender and ends up OOB?

That's a foul.

Whatinthehell does that have to do with the play we're discussing?

Try reversing it. If a <b>defender</b> tries to go between an offensive player, who is standing with the ball, and the boundary line when there is less than 3' of space, and the defender shoves the player with the ball OOB while doing so, or makes the player with the ball travel, according to what you've posted so far that <b>isn't</b> a foul. Correct?

What about the slight contact on the shooter's elbow during the jump shot? I'm sure that would be quite a bit less than the contact we're talking about where a player gets bumped and falls OOB. So since it is below that threshold, this would never be a foul?

Because if there is contact on that play and the offensive player ends up OOB as a result of it, the violation is probably the correct call. That seems to be contrary to the thinking of most people who have responded so far in this thread. The prevailing thought seems to be that since the contact caused a violation, then it should be a foul on the defender. Looking that the following two passages that doesn't seem to be true.

"A dribbler shall not charge into nor contact an opponent in his/her path nor attempt to dribble between two opponents or between an opponent and a boundary, unless the space is such as to provide a reasonable chance for him or her to go through without contact."

"There must be reasonable space between two defensive players or a defensive player and a boundary line to allow the dribbler to continue in his/her path. If there is less than 3 feet of space, the dribbler has the greater responsibility for the contact."

Neither of these passages says that a defender gets a free shot at the dribbler who finds himself in these situations.

If the defender illegally contacts the dribbler (includes but not limited to push, shove, bump, move into, tickle, kick or punch) and that contact causes the dribbler to go OOB it is a foul.

Period.

Actually, I had this many years ago in a MS game. A1 was trying to keep the ball away from B1, so B1 reaches out and tickles A1's armpits. A1 drops the ball, B1 picks it up, and we go the other way.

I think I was laughing too hard to blow the whistle.

I know better now. :D

who said the defender was within 3 feet of the sideline, and got there first?

Only in your world.....:rolleyes:

In a men's rec league game, I can see going with the "force out" call. I'm more apt to let them play through some contact, and in a situation like this, I might be tempted to make the "easy" call. If the team that was saved a foul complains, then change the call to a foul.

Now, when B3 comes up to you, as the non-calling official, simply say, "Nothing in the rules says he can't change his call." If they keep going, feel free to hold the game up for a second and say, "You know, he tried to save you guys a foul on that and you wouldn't let him. By arguing with him, you forced him to make the correct call by the rule book."

Snaq, while I understand where you are coming from that is bad practice. Working the same everytime out is the better practice.

You're right, but.... ;)
We don't ref every game the same. I don't do a 7th grade girls game the same way I did tonights 5A JV boys game. Now, that said, I stay within the rules in all of them; it's just that the rules allow for more severe contact when the players are stronger and faster and more balanced. I realize I'm talking about, essentially, ignoring a call and going with a (gasp) makeup call; and I'm not comfortable with it when put into those words. I have to admit it's what it is, though.

That said, I can understand how some would do it at the adult rec-league level. And, if someone from the fouling team (that my partner just saved a foul) comes b!tching to me about how my partner can't do that, I'm not going to have a lot of sympathy if they just whined themselves into the correct call.

Maybe that's why I don't do rec ball; I'd get eaten alive.

Rec ball is the same old problem to me. If we all did it right, the players would adjust or someone in the league would get different officials. If we all were on the same page they would either adjust or play the games with no refs.

True. And assignors also have to back their officials up when they do it right.

Weak reasoning. Now it is simply a matter of strength and how much contact you think a player should be able to handle. When I am coaching my junior high team I get so tired of little guys climbing on my big guys and officials not calling fouls because my guy "is so much bigger". It is a foul to push him or hit his arms on a try.

If I am running to receive a ball and I am a little off balance, the tiny shove might send me out of bounds, whereas without the shove I can regain my balance and stay inbounds. Now it comes down to whether or not you think I am big enough or strong enough to stay inbounds? You are now making your own rules to the game.

Getting pushed out after all my hustle puts me at an extreme disadvantage. Call the foul.

JR:

Thank you. Well said.

MTD, Sr.

No, it's not. It's a foul if it creates an advantage or affects his shot. If a kid pushes on him and it doesn't move him, how is it a foul? If a kid slaps his arm on a shot and his shot isn't affected, how is it a foul?
The rule says it's not a foul.