Did I kick this

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by fonzzy07

- 1 second left in the game.
- Team A is to inbound.
- As A1 releases the ball B1 stays is his plane does not cross the out of bounds line and bats the ball right back to A1 who is out of bounds whistle out of A1.
- I am trail and watching clock, I hear Whistle then Horn clearly.

If I'm reading this right, A1 made a legal throw-in. B1 legally touched the throw-in in bounds. B1 then bats the ball and it hits A1 who is still OOB, causing a violation by A1. Iow, B1 should now get the ball for the throw-in because of the violation.

When B1 touched the throw-in inbounds, the clock was supposed to start as per rule 5-9-4. When A1 was subsequently touched OOB by the ball, the clock was supposed to be stopped, as per rule 5-8-1(c). Well......I'd kinda think that starting and then stopping the clock would take a second if the timer has normal reflexes. Iow, there had to be some time used up on this play. And....the clock must have started because the horn went off.

Which means that I'll leave you folks to figger out what to do because I gotta go water the dogs.

[fonzzy07]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If I'm reading this right, A1 made a legal throw-in. B1 legally touched the throw-in in bounds. B1 then bats the ball and it hits A1 who is still OOB, causing a violation by A1. Iow, B1 should now get the ball for the throw-in because of the violation.

When B1 touched the throw-in inbounds, the clock was supposed to start as per rule 5-9-4. When A1 was subsequently touched OOB by the ball, the clock was supposed to be stopped, as per rule 5-8-1(c). Well......I'd kinda think that starting and then stopping the clock would take a second if the timer has normal reflexes. Iow, there had to be some time used up on this play. And....the clock must have started because the horn went off.

Which means that I'll leave you folks to figger out what to do because I gotta go water the dogs.

Thank you, this just summed up my problem. It seemed like some time should have run off. I guess the clock guy messed up, but still i had to go with what I saw on the clock didnt I?

Come on Jurassic, don't bail on us now. You're the rules guy.
"Do you have a rule to support putting that one second back on the clock??"

I'd say, game over, go home.

[26 Year Gap]

I've got 'game over'. Definite knowledge of the time ceased as the ball was touched. But why were you watching the inbounder if you were not administering the throw in?

[fonzzy07]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

I've got 'game over'. Definite knowledge of the time ceased as the ball was touched. But why were you watching the inbounder if you were not administering the throw in?

Was not I was watching the clock. I only know the details with the throw in because of the conversation I had with my partner right after the incident. I only saw the clock at 1 when the whistle blew. I also heard the horn right after the whistle tho.

[Ref Daddy]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

I've got 'game over'. Definite knowledge of the time ceased as the ball was touched. But why were you watching the inbounder if you were not administering the throw in?

You felt there was some time left - but as I read the POI and rules change this year you need DEFINITE knowledge - and that seems related to observing it on the clock.

Game over here.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Ref Daddy

You felt there was some time left - but as I read the POI and rules change this year you need DEFINITE knowledge - and that seems related to observing it on the clock.

Game over here.

He has definate knowledge. He looked at the clock when the whistled sounded and it had 1 second on it. That is definate knowledge that the violation occured with 1 second left. Put 1 second back on the clock.

[Kelvin green]

The problem with a clock with no tenths is that there could have been almost 2 seconds on the clock (1-1.9).

What you also dont know was if the timer started the clock started on the touch or not...

Ask the timer (they are an official) at what point they started the clock... You can use that to determine if the clock started late --- If it did not start correctly you have to rectify that as well.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

He has definate knowledge. He looked at the clock when the whistled sounded and it had 1 second on it. That is definate knowledge that the violation occured with 1 second left. Put 1 second back on the clock.

Say what? Where is the "definite knowledge"?

The clock should have started when the ball touched B1 on the court. The clock is now supposed to run until the violation occurs when the ball touches A1 OOB? Are you saying that complete sequence actually took zero time?

This play is a failure of the timer to start the clock properly....maybe. I really can't tell because if the horn sounded, maybe the timer did start the clock OK. Nobody's reaction time, including any timer's, is instantaneous.

Aren't you supposed to have definite knowledge of how much time elapsed before you can put time back on the clock? As in case book play 5.10.2? In that case play, the R had definite knowledge of how much time should have elapsed. That's why he can adjust the clock. In the play being discussed though, I can't see where any official has definite knowledge of how much time actually elapsed between the legal touching on-court by B1(clock should start) and the violation by A1(clock should be stopped). And if you don't have definite knowledge of how much time elapsed, you can't correct anything. And...if the horn went, the period is over.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Say what? Where is the "definite knowledge"?

The clock should have started when the ball touched B1 on the court. The clock is now supposed to run until the violation occurs when the ball touches A1 OOB? Are you saying that complete sequence actually took zero time?

This play is a failure of the timer to start the clock properly....maybe. I really can't tell because if the horn sounded, maybe the timer did start the clock OK. Nobody's reaction time, including any timer's, is instantaneous.

Aren't you supposed to have definite knowledge of how much time elapsed before you can put time back on the clock? As in case book play 5.10.2? In that case play, the R had definite knowledge of how much time should have elapsed. That's why he can adjust the clock. In the play being discussed though, I can't see where any official has definite knowledge of how much time actually elapsed between the legal touching on-court by B1(clock should start) and the violation by A1(clock should be stopped). And if you don't have definite knowledge of how much time elapsed, you can't correct anything. And...if the horn went, the period is over.

But there is someone who *might* have all the information. That's the guy who administered the throw-in IF he had a clock in his view while all this happened.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Say what? Where is the "definite knowledge"?

The clock should have started when the ball touched B1 on the court. The clock is now supposed to run until the violation occurs when the ball touches A1 OOB? Are you saying that complete sequence actually took zero time?

This play is a failure of the timer to start the clock properly....maybe. I really can't tell because if the horn sounded, maybe the timer did start the clock OK. Nobody's reaction time, including any timer's, is instantaneous.

Aren't you supposed to have definite knowledge of how much time elapsed before you can put time back on the clock? As in case book play 5.10.2? In that case play, the R had definite knowledge of how much time should have elapsed. That's why he can adjust the clock. In the play being discussed though, I can't see where any official has definite knowledge of how much time actually elapsed between the legal touching on-court by B1(clock should start) and the violation by A1(clock should be stopped). And if you don't have definite knowledge of how much time elapsed, you can't correct anything. And...if the horn went, the period is over.

You're attacking a different problem. The OP didn't see the touch and has no knowledge whether or not the clock started properly, and therefore has to assume it did.

What the OP did see is that the clock continued to run after the whistle signaling the violation. He has definate knowledge that the clock should have stopped showing 1 second. He has no knowledge regarding the start of the clock. There is only one obvious timing error and that is incorrectly stopping the clock. The clock is reset to show the amount of time remaining when the violation occured.

The issue is not with the time that properly elasped; it is with the time elapsed that shouldn't have.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Say what? Where is the "definite knowledge"?

The clock should have started when the ball touched B1 on the court. The clock is now supposed to run until the violation occurs when the ball touches A1 OOB? Are you saying that complete sequence actually took zero time?

This play is a failure of the timer to start the clock properly....maybe. I really can't tell because if the horn sounded, maybe the timer did start the clock OK. Nobody's reaction time, including any timer's, is instantaneous.

Aren't you supposed to have definite knowledge of how much time elapsed before you can put time back on the clock? As in case book play 5.10.2? In that case play, the R had definite knowledge of how much time should have elapsed. That's why he can adjust the clock. In the play being discussed though, I can't see where any official has definite knowledge of how much time actually elapsed between the legal touching on-court by B1(clock should start) and the violation by A1(clock should be stopped). And if you don't have definite knowledge of how much time elapsed, you can't correct anything. And...if the horn went, the period is over.

The clock didn't show tenths...there very well could have been 1.9 seconds at the start of the throw-in, the clock properly started, and 1.0 when the whistle blew.

You put what the official saw at the whistle, 1 second.