ref or umpire

[spivo]

This is my first post, so you guys be easy on me. I am a first year official and have worked several jv games and a few middle school games. When I am not officiating, I make the best of every opportunity I have to go to games and learn from veteran officials. Tuesday night, I officiated a boys jv game and afterward stuck around to observe the officiating in the varsity games. During the boys game I saw something happen between the ref and the center official and the result I thought should have been handled a differently. But again, I am new and I may be wrong.
Here's what happened along with my question: Team A has the ball in their front court. Lead official (who was the referee) was in position on the endline on ballside about 15 feet from the ballhandler. Center official was on ball side, (whom I thought should have moved up to trail position) about the same distance from A1 who had ball control. Both A1 and defender B1 were about 10 to 12 feet from the corner of endline and sideline. Ball is fumbled, goes out of bounds right in front of me and was obvious to me who was the last player to touch the ball. But, I realize both officials had different angles on the ball. The center official gave the signal of posession to B, at the same time the lead official gave the signal of posession to team A. The ball was retrieved by the center official and stood at the throw-in spot in the corner. At the same time the lead official stood clapping his hands for the ball telling the center official to give him the ball. The lead official lost out but was, by the looks of it, extremely angry. He was not allowed the opportunity to administer the throw-in. But took off running down the court to assume another position on the court.

My questions are; 1) Couldn't the officials have talked about the play and come to an agreement?

2) Does the Ref of the three officials have the final say in questionable calls?

3) Do you think the ref may have spoken to the center official about the way the situation was handled, and if so, what would he might have said?

1) I would say that they should have come together and discussed the play. Especially since they had different calls. First is sounds like they might have had a differing opinion of where the ball went out of bounds. If it went out on the baseline it was Leads call, on the sideline Center's (or what should have been Trail). The second problem sounds like the Lead might have been giving in to the Trail/Center's call and was asking for the ball so that they didn't have a long switch. If the ball was going the other way the Lead should have adminstered the throw-in as the new Trail and Trail/Center should have become the new lead down on the other end of the court.

2) When I am officiating it doesn't matter who is the Referee or an Umpire. Other than the beginning of the game and starting a new period. When questionable calls occur where the officials need to come together they should work as a team to get the situation resolved.

3) Hopefully they discussed the situation at a break. If I was involved I either would have mentioned that we messed up a switch, which is what the description sounds like to me. Or I would have discussed whose line is whose and that we should have discussed the call if we have a double whistle.

Hope that helps.

[spivo]

1) I would say that they should have come together and discussed the play. Especially since they had different calls. First is sounds like they might have had a differing opinion of where the ball went out of bounds. If it went out on the baseline it was Leads call, on the sideline Center's (or what should have been Trail). The second problem sounds like the Lead might have been giving in to the Trail/Center's call and was asking for the ball so that they didn't have a long switch. If the ball was going the other way the Lead should have adminstered the throw-in as the new Trail and Trail/Center should have become the new lead down on the other end of the court.

2) When I am officiating it doesn't matter who is the Referee or an Umpire. Other than the beginning of the game and starting a new period. When questionable calls occur where the officials need to come together they should work as a team to get the situation resolved.

3) Hopefully they discussed the situation at a break. If I was involved I either would have mentioned that we messed up a switch, which is what the description sounds like to me. Or I would have discussed whose line is whose and that we should have discussed the call if we have a double whistle.

On Q1 I agree it was the leads resposibility to administer the throw-in, but it looked to me more like the lead was wanting the ball to administer to team B. I say this because this play happened right in front of me. The lead was really emphasizing his signal to give team B posession. But the center official refused to give him the ball. I may be wrong. Its one of those situations I wish I could rewind and hear what might have been said between the two at the moment it took place.

On Q2, I agree with you 100%. My thinking is, I am always open to suggestions or help when another official might gave seen something I might not have seen. And your saying then, once the game has started, all officials are equally on the same continuum of authority on the floor while play is going on.

Q3, even though it could have been a mistake by the center official, if I was in his shoes I would respect any official for bringing situations like this to the table and correcting me if called for.

Thanks Jerry for your input, you have been very helpful!

[Adam]

Spivo,
There are very few things the Referee has authority to overrule on. Mainly, whether to count a score when there's some dispute between the officials and the use of Rule 2-3. The rules are very specific in that no official can overrule the call of another.
They obviously made a decision on who took the call without speaking. My guess is they spoke plenty in the locker room afterwards.

[Dan_ref]

The L has the endline and the C/T has the sideline. It's not clear to me which line the ball went out on, but the answer to that question defines who has the call.

If the other official has new information to bring to the calling official then he should take it to him. Only very rarely might there be 2 whistles on an OOB, one case is when the ball goes out right at the corner. Maybe this was the case, if so the 2 officials should have gotten together to discuss which was the correct call. Of course if the ball's going out right at the corner and my partner has a whistle I aint pointing until we make eye contact. I like to think so, anyway.

Sooo...at which line did the ball go out?

[spivo]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

The L has the endline and the C/T has the sideline. It's not clear to me which line the ball went out on, but the answer to that question defines who has the call.

If the other official has new information to bring to the calling official then he should take it to him. Only very rarely might there be 2 whistles on an OOB, one case is when the ball goes out right at the corner. Maybe this was the case, if so the 2 officials should have gotten together to discuss which was the correct call. Of course if the ball's going out right at the corner and my partner has a whistle I aint pointing until we make eye contact. I like to think so, anyway.

Sooo...at which line did the ball go out?

It went out right at the corner. I'm sure from the angle the officials were at, it was very hard to judge. I happened to be sitting right at that corner. I agree the officials should have gotten together to make ensure the right call.

[spivo]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Spivo,
There are very few things the Referee has authority to overrule on. Mainly, whether to count a score when there's some dispute between the officials and the use of Rule 2-3. The rules are very specific in that no official can overrule the call of another.
They obviously made a decision on who took the call without speaking. My guess is they spoke plenty in the locker room afterwards.

I believe in all the rules. Mainly because I know they were made up by those who know alot more about the game than I do. I love the rule on "not over-ruling another official". If I have made a mistake in judgement on a call, I would hope my partner would discuss it with me immediately to ensure the proper call to be made. I'm in such a learning mode right now, I have to keep telling myself that I will make mistakes. I would definitely NOT want to take anything away from the kids playing or the game.

Thanks for your reply.

[spivo]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Spivo,
There are very few things the Referee has authority to overrule on. Mainly, whether to count a score when there's some dispute between the officials and the use of Rule 2-3. The rules are very specific in that no official can overrule the call of another.
They obviously made a decision on who took the call without speaking. My guess is they spoke plenty in the locker room afterwards.

In this type of situation, if another official refuses to talk about it and presses on with the game, should the other official just submit to the others judgement? I ask this because I am new and really respect the views of the veterans I officiate with.

[tomegun]

It sounds like you saw one or two egos on this play. In your opinion, who was right (correct) on this call? If the ball was going to the other end of the floor, the old lead should have taken the ball out whether it was on the sideline or endline. Of course that wouldn't be the case if the ball went out on the sideline opposite the table and this game was played in the great state of Mississippi!

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by spivo

In this type of situation, if another official refuses to talk about it and presses on with the game, should the other official just submit to the others judgement?

The question you have to ask yourself is, "what choice do I have?" Are we going to stand there in the corner and argue about the call? Is one of the officials going to simply keep the ball and refuse to continue the game? No.

You can make your case strongly. You can say "I know this is the rule. . ." or some people suggest saying, "I will take full responsibility for this call." You can certainly try -- briefly -- to convince your partner that he or she is not correct.

But at some point, if you recognize that you cannot win this battle, you have to allow the game to continue and then beat the other guy up in the locker room.

[Adam]

Some people have strong personalities and seem to be able to get their way. When I was new (less than 5 ms games under my belt), I insisted I was right on a rule, convinced my partner and the coaches to go with my view, and got back to my dorm and learned that when a free throw shooter is injured and unable to shoot, his sub must shoot the free throws.

[spivo]

Originally Posted by tomegun

It sounds like you saw one or two egos on this play. In your opinion, who was right (correct) on this call? If the ball was going to the other end of the floor, the old lead should have taken the ball out whether it was on the sideline or endline. Of course that wouldn't be the case if the ball went out on the sideline opposite the table and this game was played in the great state of Mississippi!

The ego thing seemed to be the case. I say this because I noticed both officials made eye contact for a few seconds. The ball should have given to the opposing team. But, here again, maybe in the center officials view, he saw something that seemed definitive to him. Same goes for the other official, he was very definitive in his call which was opposite the center officials.

The game was played in Tennessee. Hillbilly country!

[spivo]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Some people have strong personalities and seem to be able to get their way. When I was new (less than 5 ms games under my belt), I insisted I was right on a rule, convinced my partner and the coaches to go with my view, and got back to my dorm and learned that when a free throw shooter is injured and unable to shoot, his sub must shoot the free throws.

The very reason I am open and willing for input communication from my partners. I realize there will be those with strong, unchangeable character, but I am trying to develop a method of dealing with this type before I have to. I have been lucky so far in that everyone I have worked with has been up-front and honest with me and open to constructive criticism. One of the reasons I keep an eye on this site, you guys ought to be compensated for the great advise you give in these posts. I have learned more today, than in a week of officiating. You guys are great!

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by tomegun

It sounds like you saw one or two egos on this play. In your opinion, who was right (correct) on this call? If the ball was going to the other end of the floor, the old lead should have taken the ball out whether it was on the sideline or endline. Of course that wouldn't be the case if the ball went out on the sideline opposite the table and this game was played in the great state of Mississippi!

What's so great about Mississippi?

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by spivo

The ego thing seemed to be the case. I say this because I noticed both officials made eye contact for a few seconds. The ball should have given to the opposing team. But, here again, maybe in the center officials view, he saw something that seemed definitive to him. Same goes for the other official, he was very definitive in his call which was opposite the center officials.

The game was played in Tennessee. Hillbilly country!

Quick question about Tennessee: In Tennessee, if you divorce your wife, is she still your sister?