What would you do....

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by PYRef

Jurassic, I wasn't there and don't know exactly what happened in this case, but according to the OP I think the officials were wrong (there, I said it!) for allowing the game to even continue. You would have forfeited that game long before that too, so don't even tell me that you think it was handled properly.

You're right in that I would have forfeited that game a heckuva lot earlier. Personally, I wouldn't have gone to the assistant coach in the first place. I would have had the timer put 60 seconds on the clock after the head coach refused to leave, watch it run down while ignoring the head coach, and if he isn't on his way out the door at the end of 60 seconds, the game's over. And....I've done exactly that in similar situations before.

What I personally would or wouldn't have done isn't the point that I was trying to make though. The officials on the spot did what they thought was best to try and save that game. Maybe they were wrong in letting it go too far, but that conclusion is only dependant on the end results of their efforts. If what they tried to do had worked, we wouldn't be having this discussion. At no time, though, did the officials cause any of this mess. They only reacted to the unsporting actions of others. You may be able to fault their judgement after the fact but you can't in any way, shape or form imo blame them for what actually transpired. They didn't add fuel to the fire; they tried to put out the fire. There's a huge difference between the two.

Originally Posted by Tomegun

1. Too many people are quick to say what they would do in a game and have never been at that level and/or in that situation. You are a perfect example of that. Doing 8th grade games does not compare to a good JV game let alone a varsity game.

First of all, no where in the OP does it state what level game this was. Secondly, based on the circumstances described, it shouldn't matter. I couldn't imagine letting a 4th grade girls game continue like that, let alone the fact if it was a higher level game. I think everyone will agree the coaches at that level should know better (although it's obvious some don't).

Originally Posted by Tomegun

2. I'm not trying to belittle your opinion. I'm trying to put your opinion into perspective. How would you feel if a rookie cop stood up in a meeting and said what should be done during a major drug bust or arrest? I thought so!

I'm not trying to tell anyone how to do their job. I'll be the first one to admit that experience is the best teacher. I'm only basing an opinion on what the end result was. I stick with my assertion that it went too long and I highly doubt that any of you seasoned officials will disagree with that.
If I posted that this situation happened to me, every one here would say "you kicked it! You should've forfeited the game". You are belittling my opinion because you don't think I'm entitled to one.

Originally Posted by Tomegun

Unfortunately, this isn't law enforcement, this is officiating. One of the hardest things in officiating is for a successful adult to begin officiating. That person may have experienced success in other areas of life, but this is officiating and you are at the "bottom of the totem pole" when you start out.

I never said it was, and I'm not trying to say that having a successful career in LE automatically makes me a good ref. I used this analogy because both jobs involve interpersonal relations and I learned a long time ago that how you deal with people can influence their reactions. That in no way implies that you kiss their azz. Techniques used when talking to some agitated scroteball during a criminal investigation aren't all that different than when dealing with a PO'd coach.

Originally Posted by Tomegun

You should give me credit for this since I was right on point with you and correctly sniffed out the fact that you made bold statements but you have never been in a position to experience what you are saying should have been done.

Tell me Mr. Experience, would you, or would you not have forfeited the game? Would you have tolerated the actions of that team? I think not!
Why should I give you credit for sniffing me out when I made a statement that virtually every veteran official would agree with?

Again, I should just sit down and shut up because I'm a newbie.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

At no time, though, did the officials cause any of this mess. They only reacted to the unsporting actions of others. You may be able to fault their judgement after the fact but you can't in any way, shape or form imo blame them for what actually transpired. They didn't add fuel to the fire; they tried to put out the fire.

I didn't blame them for causing it, but I wasn't there and you weren't there either to witness their actions. To say that they couldn't have in any way, shape or form contributed to this is a pretty bold statement. How do we know they didn't add fuel to the fire? We don't know what they said or did at the time.
My OP stated that I tend to think the refs actions only added fuel to the fire. That comes from my life experiences of dealing with people. I didn't imply that they were major a-holes and inflamed the bench. If that's how it came across, I apologize to them.
It could very well have been just the team. Some people are just di*ks. Believe me I know.

[rainmaker]

PY --

Don't worry too much about Tom. You'll get used to him. He can be a little too confrontive at times, but that's just his style. Sometimes his contributions can be really helpful. THe rest of us will be glad to argue with you ad infinitum without getting too personal, as long as you dont get too personal either.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by PYRef

First of all, no where in the OP does it state what level game this was. Secondly, based on the circumstances described, it shouldn't matter. I couldn't imagine letting a 4th grade girls game continue like that, let alone the fact if it was a higher level game. I think everyone will agree the coaches at that level should know better (although it's obvious some don't).

The refs got personally involved. I wouldn't have. I would've ejected and put 60 on the clock and walked away.

I've ejected 2 coaches in 20 years -- one varsity boys coach (non-affiliated, private Christian school) and one JV boys coach (16 years ago). The JV coach got ejected in the hallway at halftime. I told him, before closing the door on him, that if I so much as saw him in the second half, I would forfeit the game. And I would've. I was a newbie then myself, with only 4 years experience.

Originally Posted by rainmaker

PY --

Don't worry too much about Tom. You'll get used to him. He can be a little too confrontive at times, but that's just his style. Sometimes his contributions can be really helpful. THe rest of us will be glad to argue with you ad infinitum without getting too personal, as long as you dont get too personal either.

Thanks (it's Juulie, right?) I won't get personal, but I won't shut up either!

[Ron Pilo]

I agree with the folks who say put 60 second on the clock and if the Coach isn't gone we have a forfeit.

I would make sure that as I was communication to the table I would say in a voice loud enough to hear. "Please put 60 seconds on the clock, if the coach is not out of sight when the horn goes off, this game is a forfeit."

That way enough people in the gym know then it is now on the coaches shoulders to determine what is going to happen.

I would not address the Assistant at all in this situation, it put's too much pressure on them to deal with the volatile situation........Make it the Head coaches responsibility all the way.......

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by PYRef

Thanks (it's Juulie, right?) I won't get personal, but I won't shut up either!

"Juulie" is correct. And if you can follow through (most of us lose it at one point or another in the don't-take-it-personally-department) and if you can admit it when you're wrong at least once in a while, you'll be a welcome addition to our little community of grouches! welcome to the board...

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

PY --

Don't worry too much about Tom. You'll get used to him. He can be a little too confrontive at times, but that's just his style. Sometimes his contributions can be really helpful. THe rest of us will be glad to argue with you ad infinitum without getting too personal, as long as you dont get too personal either.

Thank you. For some reason I'm feeling extra confrontational today. I honestly don't know why.

I still say, when I started I was seen and not heard. Maybe that is just my method of learning: listen to those with more experience because they know more than me. Pretty silly huh?

[MadCityRef]

If this was a high school game or lower and the coaches were ejected, how could the game continue with only players? If we toss the coaches the game is over because an adult associated with the school must take supervision of the players. And no, you do not put a parent on the bench; AD or Principal only.
If the team has no responsible adults and the game continues, anything that happens is now on the referees.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Thank you. For some reason I'm feeling extra confrontational today. I honestly don't know why.

I still say, when I started I was seen and not heard. Maybe that is just my method of learning: listen to those with more experience because they know more than me. Pretty silly huh?

Not at all silly. Just not the way everyone learns. Personally, I learn by arguing, and it's been a tough lesson for me that this doesn't always wash with everyone. You probably advanced faster than me partly because your nature of being a listening type fits in with the culture of reffing. Well, besides your obviously greater talent, judgment and physical condition.

I'm glad you noticed the obvious extra confrontational-ness today. It's better for you to see it yourself and deal with it (as we say to captains in the pre-game conference). Then we don't have to!

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by PYRef

Tell me Mr. Experience, would you, or would you not have forfeited the game? Would you have tolerated the actions of that team?

Thank you for the kind words.

I probably would have told the table to give me some time and the game was over after that. Furthermore, depending on what kind of mood I was in at the time, I would have waited for the head coach to leave and then gave the assistant a T.

I'm all for forfeiting games. I tried to forfeit a summer league game last summer. A coach was saying some things and one of my partners conveniently didn't hear him. I gave him one technical and immediately turned away. It was the second half and I was table side on the shooting end. He kept right on talking like he didn't just get a technical foul. Neither one of my partners did anything so I gave him another one. Keep in mind this all started because he was being a jerk about all of our calls. Well, after the second T, the gym was dead silent and on his way out he yelled something about he is glad we don't do his games. I was the only one on the crew who belonged to the board that did his games, he knew this because I had just given him a T during the season. He also said or yelled, "You guys suck!" The game had a little more than two minutes left and the other team was up by about 20. I called the game and went to sit down at the bench with my cool drink. Somehow, my partner got me to not forfeit the game because, "This is a summer game and it is for the kids." This is one of my good friends, but I'm still pissed about that game.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by MadCityRef

If this was a high school game or lower and the coaches were ejected, how could the game continue with only players? If we toss the coaches the game is over because an adult associated with the school must take supervision of the players. And no, you do not put a parent on the bench; AD or Principal only.
If the team has no responsible adults and the game continues, anything that happens is now on the referees.

Here in Oregon, I believe only someone who is certified by the state to be a coach can take over coaching duties if the head coach is tossed and there are no assistants (or they got tossed, too). I had a game where my partner gave two quick T's to a coach and sent him packing with 12 seconds left in the game and his team leading by 8. The other team's coach (wisely) asked me if the parent who had come down from the stands to coach the team was certified by the state to coach. I asked him hoping he would just say "yes" (I couldn't possibly verify it so I'd have to take him at his word), but he said "no". The game was then forfeited and the team about to lose won the game 2-0. Fun fun.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Not at all silly. Just not the way everyone learns. Personally, I learn by arguing, and it's been a tough lesson for me that this doesn't always wash with everyone. You probably advanced faster than me partly because your nature of being a listening type fits in with the culture of reffing. Well, besides your obviously greater talent, judgment and physical condition.

I'm glad you noticed the obvious extra confrontational-ness today. It's better for you to see it yourself and deal with it (as we say to captains in the pre-game conference). Then we don't have to!

Sometimes I think you are too hard on yourself and don't give yourself enough credit. One thing about some sports and officiating as well, sometimes we have to give each other confidence in order to get the most out of the crew. You know the rules, you want to do the right thing and you have heard/read some very screwy scenarios. That can help a crew immensely.

Enough of all this gooey stuff, I'm supposed to be confrontational today.

[BktBallRef]

Group hug.......

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by Ron Pilo

I agree with the folks who say put 60 second on the clock and if the Coach isn't gone we have a forfeit.

I would make sure that as I was communication to the table I would say in a voice loud enough to hear. "Please put 60 seconds on the clock, if the coach is not out of sight when the horn goes off, this game is a forfeit."

That way enough people in the gym know then it is now on the coaches shoulders to determine what is going to happen.

I would not address the Assistant at all in this situation, it put's too much pressure on them to deal with the volatile situation........Make it the Head coaches responsibility all the way.......

You guys are all way too generous.....as I posted earlier, I'd only give him 30 seconds