Eyepoke

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

I don't think an assigner is going to get to bent out of shape for this one.

Wrong. An assignor would take your azz off his availabilty list if you pulled crap like that. Assignors aren't real happy when their officials start to make up their own rules. That's because, unlike Rec leagues, assignors usually deal with coaches that understand rules that pertain to them. And when coaches get pissed off because some official who doesn't know the basic rules screws them, then they call the assignor and say real nasty things to him- like "WTF are you doing sending me that moron?". And the assignor is stuck for an answer because the coach has every damn right in the world to be mad. Noooooooo, assignors don't like to get phone calls like that. Soooooo, if they get more than 1 or 2 about a certain official, that official may return to the rec leagues from whence he came- never to be sighted again in meaningful games.

[deecee]

no training for the first 4 years -- just went by what i saw in nba and college and from plaing basketball. so any complicated scenarious were f`ed up

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You are wise beyond your years.

If there's no appreciable delay, just get the game going.

This is using way too much common sense (or since) and the almighty Old School might not like this way of doing things.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by armymanjones

LOL before you beckon you determine by asking the player or observing and making a decision as to the ability of the player to continue. If the player can not immediately continue and the case book says not more than a few seconds the player should be replaced and if you beckon the player has to be removed. So give it a second to see if the players ok and if not you beckon. Better to error on the side of safety.

LOL

Instead of having your head stuck in the rule book (it is important) you should use some common sense (since for Old School). You are not always going to follow step 1, step 2, etc. For instance if a player goes down hard and hits their head, I'm waiving the coach in instantly as I'm blowing the whistle. Sure that is totally on the other end of the spectrum from JR's last post, but that is life in officiating. The rulebook is the guideline, but sometimes common sense must prevail and we should do what is right for the game. Don't get so caught up in trying to apply every rule word by word to every situation.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by deecee

no training for the first 4 years -- just went by what i saw in nba and college and from plaing basketball. so any complicated scenarious were f`ed up

IMHO I would say you have 4 years experience or 4 years as a "trained" official.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Luckily I am blessed to work for a supervisor who is a Big Ten/Final Four official, so I have been exposed to the Midwest flavor also.

You are really stuck on this regional stuff (which you brought up btw). Unless your friend works directly in the Midwest I do not know what this proves. It is different working major college basketball than working HS. Major college conferences are more alike than HS ball would be from one place to another. There are different expectations in my state depending one what conference you are working or where you are working the game.

Peace

[tomegun]

His "friend" works for the Big Ten but lives on the east coast.

Rut, I have a question that is totally off topic and I hope not too general for an answer. I have lived on the west coast (sort of) and the east coast. Although many (on the west coast) would like to deny it, there is a different brand of basketball played between the coasts. Out west more fouls are called that would be considered "game interupters" (JR ) on the east coast. More emphasis is placed on playing through contact on the east coast. My question is this, how would you say the midwest compares to this? I'm originally from the midwest, but I have no experience as an official in that part of the country and this conversation just made me curious.

[armymanjones]

Originally Posted by tomegun

LOL

Instead of having your head stuck in the rule book (it is important) you should use some common sense (since for Old School). You are not always going to follow step 1, step 2, etc. For instance if a player goes down hard and hits their head, I'm waiving the coach in instantly as I'm blowing the whistle. Sure that is totally on the other end of the spectrum from JR's last post, but that is life in officiating. The rulebook is the guideline, but sometimes common sense must prevail and we should do what is right for the game. Don't get so caught up in trying to apply every rule word by word to every situation.

TG I'm not going to get personal and say you don't use common sense and that maybe you should get your head into the rule book more. I am just stating the rule. Officiating is a lot of common sense. The rules are the rules and we are there to enforce the rules. I understand what JR was saying but thank you for the lecture. I have been doing this for a while at the V level and I continue to learn even after 18yrs. I know of no one who follows every rule to the letter but it is there in the case book.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by armymanjones

LOL before you beckon you determine by asking the player or observing and making a decision as to the ability of the player to continue. If the player can not immediately continue and the case book says not more than a few seconds the player should be replaced and if you beckon the player has to be removed. So give it a second to see if the players ok and if not you beckon. Better to error on the side of safety.

If a coach is sharp enough to read the situation and see that it was minor and his player can continue, then if he hasn't come on the floor I'm not gonna make him remove his player. If there's any doubt in my mind about the player's condition though, he will be going out.

It's almost the same as when you get a little shoving match out there and a coach quickly comes out on the floor to break it up. Technically, he's supposed to be gone with a flagrant technical foul. In practise imo, if he's out there to help the situation, then I beckoned him, even though nobody might have seen that beckon.

One is an inadvertant beckon and one is a phantom beckon....and both are useful tools imo.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by tomegun

His "friend" works for the Big Ten but lives on the east coast.

Rut, I have a question that is totally off topic and I hope not too general for an answer. I have lived on the west coast (sort of) and the east coast. Although many (on the west coast) would like to deny it, there is a different brand of basketball played between the coasts. Out west more fouls are called that would be considered "game interupters" (JR ) on the east coast. More emphasis is placed on playing through contact on the east coast. My question is this, how would you say the midwest compares to this? I'm originally from the midwest, but I have no experience as an official in that part of the country and this conversation just made me curious.

Tom, this is a very interesting question, and I'd like to see it in a separate thread. Would taht be okay?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You are really stuck on this regional stuff (which you brought up btw). Unless your friend works directly in the Midwest I do not know what this proves. It is different working major college basketball than working HS. Major college conferences are more alike than HS ball would be from one place to another. There are different expectations in my state depending one what conference you are working or where you are working the game.

Peace

I brought up regional in the smart-a$$ version of my answers to your original question to me. I even put a little "winky" icon at the end of the sentence. That would be you who brought up the "If you have worked with people across the country like I have at camps" reference to make a point.

So, which is it? In order to play the regional card, do I need to be exposed to people from all over the country or do I need to be exposed to people who work directly in the Midwest? I'm confused now.

But I like how you ignored the this part of my last post since (sense) it rendered your original assertion about me moot.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

and here was my exact response: "I've had this situation before. If you realize it fast enough you can come with a late whistle for a foul. Still, some will say if you don't actually see the foul you can't call it.

The 2 or 3 times I've come with a late foul whistle no one has ever complained."

I fail to see any cohersive tone to my response.

Is this the part where I'm supposed to say "Your response tells me everything I need to know anyway."?

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Tom, this is a very interesting question, and I'd like to see it in a separate thread. Would taht be okay?

Sure would!

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by armymanjones

TG I'm not going to get personal and say you don't use common sense and that maybe you should get your head into the rule book more. I am just stating the rule. Officiating is a lot of common sense. The rules are the rules and we are there to enforce the rules. I understand what JR was saying but thank you for the lecture. I have been doing this for a while at the V level and I continue to learn even after 18yrs. I know of no one who follows every rule to the letter but it is there in the case book.

It isn't anything personal, I'm just a little confrontational today. Since (sense) you have that much experience you can understand where I'm coming from. Many people may or may not use this forum as a tool. When a veteran official says something without being clear about it, a young official could go off an become too rigid with their application of the rules. Additionally, we some posters who are sort of tools themselves which confuses the matter even more. At the end of the day, I want to do what is right for the game and making sure the correct message is sent is very important to me.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Wrong. An assignor would take your azz off his availabilty list if you pulled crap like that.

Crap like what? Crap like a player faked being foul and I sent him to the bench. As the official for the game. If I say give me a sub because I feel in my mind that the player is injured. I am within my rights as an official to declare a player unfit to play at anytime in the game. YOU GOT THAT JR, AT ANYTIME!!!! You can kiss my azz, cause guess what, he's going to the bench. If the coach and players says he's not injured because he faked the injury. Well in my mind, he's injured and must now leave the game. I'm not a doctor so I'm not going there. I'm not so stupid as to send someone to the bench for no reason. You are stupid to assume that I would.

Assignors aren't real happy when their officials start to make up their own rules. That's because, unlike Rec leagues, assignors usually deal with coaches that understand rules that pertain to them. And when coaches get pissed off because some official who doesn't know the basic rules screws them, then they call the assignor and say real nasty things to him- like "WTF are you doing sending me that moron?".

This is just plain dumb, you need to rethink this statement. Any official I send to the game is #1 qualified to be there, so I'm insulted by this statement as the assigner. #2, sh!t happens, no official is perfect. I'm sure worst things have happen to you in a game than a player being asked to sit out for one play. In fact, you know what! The official gave you a break. He could have enforced a technical here if the player was faking. We teach our officials to always side on the side of caution when it comes to injuries. If we're not sure, best to have them sit down. I think this is more or so, how the conversation will go, but then again, I'm also sure there are assigners that think like you. Just looking for a reason to throw an official under the bus.

Good job proving that point.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Old School

YOU GOT THAT JR, AT ANYTIME!!!! You can kiss my azz, cause guess what, he's going to the bench. I'm not so stupid as to send someone to the bench for no reason. You are stupid to assume that I would.

This is just plain dumb, you need to rethink this statement. Any official I send to the game is #1 qualified to be there, so I'm insulted by this statement as the assigner. #2, sh!t happens, no official is perfect. I'm sure worst things have happen to you in a game than a player being asked to sit out for one play. In fact, you know what! The official gave you a break. He could have enforced a technical here if the player was faking. We teach our officials to always side on the side of caution when it comes to injuries. If we're not sure, best to have them sit down. I think this is more or so, how the conversation will go, but then again, I'm also sure there are assigners that think like you. Just looking for a reason to throw an official under the bus.

Good job proving that point.

Okay, look, OS, I can't defend you when you start going off. Whatever works for you in your league at your situation is great, but you gotta realize that most of us don't do things the way you're saying. If you'd just acknowledge that perhaps there's a bigger world out there than your league and your way of doing things, this whole conversation would be a lot better for everyone -- including you!