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-   -   What would it take for a double T on a 13 year old boy? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/30331-what-would-take-double-t-13-year-old-boy.html)

JRutledge Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
Rec league? Excuse me? Perhaps you are the one that needs some professional help. Anyone that compares an NBA brawl to violence in a Catholic community, and argue they are one in the same needs professional help. And I still think Isiah started it.
Actually Old School I did not make any comparison about Catholic schools other than to state that the fight that took place outside of a game I worked, happen with two Catholic schools. I would not assume a fight was inherent of the schools or the administration of those schools. You on the other hand compared the fight in the NBA to the Black community and suggested that the two somehow tied into each other when in every other sport there are fights is tied directly to a specific community. Then on the other hand, I am not the only person here questioning your background or your officiating ability.

Peace

Junker Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:24pm
I haven't read this thread in a while, but what is there to debate about running a JH kid? They are there to learn to play, not complain. I can't believe this thread has run on past 5 pages. I guess I'm adding to it though huh? I

tomegun Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap
You DO realize that earlier in this thread you said you would work with him. don't you?
I guessed I was fooled into thinking another official - another adult - could be consistent. Shame on me, because I know better.

Old School Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
Actually Old School I did not make any comparison about Catholic schools
You bought it into the discussion which means you are wrong again.

Quote:
You on the other hand compared the fight in the NBA to the Black community and suggested that the two somehow tied into each other
Yes, black on black crime, Humm..., they do kind of tie together, don't they? But the Catholic community, NOT! How did we get here again?

Quote:
Then on the other hand, I am not the only person here questioning your background or your officiating ability.
People always question someones ability when they dare to speak the truth. Yes, my intergity is in question, but my message stays the same. Isiah started it!

tomegun Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignats75
...one of the other officials is required to be by the bench and how he handles the coach will be critiqued. I know first hand that ignoring a coach who has been teed that is trying to communicate his perspective is judged as poor game management. It happened to a partner of mine after I had whacked a coach. The assignor was in the stands and ripped my partner a new one after the game.

I don't paint little whistles on my car door for every time I whack a coach. I don't view coaches as part of the evil empire. I also recognize that they can cross a line and get teed. ALOT of the time, they realize it too and the T can get them to calm down which makes for a better game. If me or a partner can help them calm down, then thats good game management.

But helping them calm down doesn't mean I'm throwing my partner under the bus either. But a professional demeanor even after an incident can help defuse a situation. Ignoring a coach is NOT considered good communication skills and therefore not good game management.

OK...now bring on the flames.
Where are you officiating at? If you call a T in the second half, does an official have to be by the coach? I don't think so. Do you call two man or three man? In a two man game, does an official ever have to be by the coach? I don't think so.
You do NOT have to calm a coach down and if your assigner ripped you a new one then your assigner needs to learn a thing or two about how things are perceived. It shouldn't be necessary for an official to calm a coach down after an earned technical. Let the assistant - which you have probably already communicated with in length - calm down the coach.

tomegun Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by blindzebra
There is a big difference between doing your job professionally and the philosophy being proposed by Old School and apparently your assignor...and for what it's worth, my HS partner comes from Ohio so I know first hand of the unique and sometimes completely against the manual, like no team control signal, way they do things.;)

As I stated earlier: In the NFHS the coach loses the box, so at that point I believe a non-calling official should go over to inform the coach, but it's not to allow the coach to voice their concerns, it's to remove some of the emotion and hopefully diffuse the situation.

If I'm going over to notify the coach I'm not talking to the coach, I'm observing the players. If the coach wants to use that first FT to talk to my backside...CALMLY...so be it, but after that second FT goes up, they get told to sit and I'm going about getting the ball back into play.

By doing it that way, I'm doing what I'm supposed to do following a T...notifying the coach and observing the players...I'm being professional and calm, but I'm not interacting with that coach. The smart coach realizes that they have an opportunity to vent a little, based on my location, but again they will be doing so to my backside and in a equally calm and professional manner.

The distinction may seem subtle, but by not saying anything but coach you have lost your box, this does usually work very well at calming the situation...key word being situation, not coach...by giving a location that provides the coach may be heard, but in a way that nobody gets the idea that you are working a good cop, bad cop deal and selling your partner down the river by comforting the coach.
If a technical foul is called in the second half on a coach, there is no reason for an official to be next to a coach. Furthermore, by going up to a coach and telling him/her they must be seated, an official is opening themselves up for the coach to blast them more. If an official keeps a good distance (15ft +) the official can clearly and loudly say, "Coach you must remain seated." The official's duty is done, the coach knows they must sit and anything the coach says will be loud enough to make an additional T easy.

Ignats75 Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:59pm
This was 3 person mechanic. The partner was reprimanded for his lack of communication skills. Do I HAVE to calm the coach down? No. He can continue down the same road he's already on and we as partner's can draw straws to see who gets to do the paperwork for the ejection;) . But I do have to provide some form of communication if requested and in Ohio's case remind the coach that he's wearing a seatbelt. How I handle that CAN calm the coach down, have no effect or enflame the situation. In my mind, the first is the best outcome of the three, so if I can accomplish that without affecting my and my partner's performance...all the better.

But again, let me make this clear....throwing someone under the bus is not an option. Those two partners are the only friends I have that night. I think we are all dancing around semantics. (except for JR's Buddy:D )

tomegun Thu Dec 21, 2006 01:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
Then you should not be an official.
I'm not talking about cursing during a game or at a coach/player. I was talking about cursing and name-calling directed towards you!

I also have to apologize to my fellow real officials; I wouldn't work with you if we were digging a ditch!

tomegun Thu Dec 21, 2006 01:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignats75
This was 3 person mechanic. The partner was reprimanded for his lack of communication skills. Do I HAVE to calm the coach down? No. He can continue down the same road he's already on and we as partner's can draw straws to see who gets to do the paperwork for the ejection;) . But I do have to provide some form of communication if requested and in Ohio's case remind the coach that he's wearing a seatbelt. How I handle that CAN calm the coach down, have no effect or enflame the situation. In my mind, the first is the best outcome of the three, so if I can accomplish that without affecting my and my partner's performance...all the better.

But again, let me make this clear....throwing someone under the bus is not an option. Those two partners are the only friends I have that night. I think we are all dancing around semantics. (except for JR's Buddy:D )
"Coach, you must remain seated." Then I turn and move towards the center circle in the first half or I turn and remain in the front court (since I was never in the backcourt in the first place) during the second hal. How does that cause further emotion either way from the coach? If the coach earned a T, why does it matter if my communication does anything to calm the coach down or not? I agree, I don't want to bait the coach, but I'm not going to use soothing words either. I can picture you right up next to the coach after your partner gives a technical foul.

On a similar note, I had a partner come to me and ask me what a player did after a technical so he could tell the coach - in the second half! For one, I can explain things for myself. Second, there is no reason to be by the coach in the second half. Finally, he said the I HAD to tell him (my partner) what the kid did so he could tell the coach. He was probably offended after I laughed in his face when he told me this in the locker room. I will communicate (at the appropriate time) and I will be fair. I'm not Dr. Phil!

JRutledge Thu Dec 21, 2006 01:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
Yes, black on black crime, Humm..., they do kind of tie together, don't they? But the Catholic community, NOT! How did we get here again?
Can you tell me who was arrested for this fight in MSG? Can you name one person? The fight did not happen in the middle of a playground somewhere, it happen during a sporting event. And the fact that you even said Black on Black crime shows how stupid you are. So if there was a white player and a Black player that threw punches in this game, would have have considered this a racial riot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
People always question someones ability when they dare to speak the truth. Yes, my intergity is in question, but my message stays the same. Isiah started it!
I am questioning your ability because of the responses you have given in this post and others. They are so way off base or out of many officials are taught or experience, it is clear to me that you are trying to make yourself out to be something that you are not. Also have never had a major pre-game issue with very experienced officials on what to do on a T other than we usually talk about not giving a coach a free shot at each of us without penalty. I never tell someone how to handle a coach or what to do if their behavior is out of line. I will agree that a non-calling official can be a calming influence because they likely are not the officials a coach is mad at. But that does not mean they get a free shot or it would be the non-calling official's job to calm anyone down. If the coach or player pops off, then they are the ones that rolled the dice. Not everyone is going to tolerate your BS. The way you talk about things is the reason I think you are clueless and the discussion above is confirms to me why you are clueless. Black on Black crime now that was funny.

Peace

Old School Thu Dec 21, 2006 01:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomegun
You do NOT have to calm a coach down
Nobody is saying that you have to calm down a coach. No one is saying this at all. However, you do need to process some people skills. If a coach asks you a question, you are obligated to answer the question. If you ignore the coach, even in a tense situation, that looks worse, imo. Coaches will become even more irate if you ignore them. That is a proven fact.

Now let's play this out a minute. Coach is ejected. Coach tells his boss A/D that those officials wouldn't answer my questions, they ignored me and then gave me a T for complaining too much. A/D calls assigner after reviewing game tape and asks the assigner, why did your officials not answer my coaches questions? We accept the T and ejection but I'm a little concerned that the crew you send over here is too inexperienced to work at this level. We do not want officials that are too intimidated that they can't answer a direct question from our coach in the heat of battle.

Quote:
It shouldn't be necessary for an official to calm a coach down after an earned technical. Let the assistant - which you have probably already communicated with in length - calm down the coach.
You are the only one that is saying this. You obviously have no people skills, whatsoever. Quick lesson. If someone is yelling at you, and you respond back in a calm manner, it has a tendency to calm the person that is yelling. Another proven fact. Customer communications 101. No one is advocating calming down an irate coach, at least I'm not. Responding too direct questions from a coach is a must, and they will come right after a technical, expect them to come right after a T, which is why I suggest calling official go opposite table in 3 person. In 2-person, calling official can go administrator FT's.

Adam Thu Dec 21, 2006 01:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
Can you tell me who was arrested for this fight in MSG? Can you name one person? The fight did not happen in the middle of a playground somewhere, it happen during a sporting event. And the fact that you even said Black on Black crime shows how stupid you are. So if there was a white player and a Black player that threw punches in this game, would have have considered this a racial riot?
Every time I think I should stop reading this incessant thread, someone makes a funny. :D

Adam Thu Dec 21, 2006 01:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
If a coach asks you a question, you are obligated to answer the question.
Now, where did I put that trophy?

blindzebra Thu Dec 21, 2006 02:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomegun
If a technical foul is called in the second half on a coach, there is no reason for an official to be next to a coach. Furthermore, by going up to a coach and telling him/her they must be seated, an official is opening themselves up for the coach to blast them more. If an official keeps a good distance (15ft +) the official can clearly and loudly say, "Coach you must remain seated." The official's duty is done, the coach knows they must sit and anything the coach says will be loud enough to make an additional T easy.

Funny, you said in another thread that you loved the way we handled that situation...on a second half T.;)

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...492#post359492

Old School Thu Dec 21, 2006 03:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
They are so way off base or out of many officials are taught or experience, it is clear to me that you are trying to make yourself out to be something that you are not.
No, you and the others are.

Quote:
Also have never had a major pre-game issue with very experienced officials on what to do on a T other than we usually talk about not giving a coach a free shot at each of us without penalty.
Judging by all of your posts, maybe you need to start.

Quote:
I never tell someone how to handle a coach or what to do if their behavior is out of line. I will agree that a non-calling official can be a calming influence because they likely are not the officials a coach is mad at.
Bingo! Point made! That is all I am trying to convey.

It only took six pages and a ton of insults. Believe it or not, you guys are improving. There is hope for you old dogs to learn something new. :D


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