What would it take for a double T on a 13 year old boy?
 

I searched the forum for "technical" and found some interesting reading. Tolerance, warnings, sure ways to get one. But one thing is for sure, the majority of the officials would rather NOT give a T "if" it can be avoided.
Here's a situation that I was made aware of. I was not there. I'm the league director and received a call from the ref and coach of the boy getting the double T.
7th & 8th grade boys. Close game (a few points). Player gets his 5th foul (ref A making the call) and reacts by raising his hands and has some audible words (no swearing). Ref B hits him with the first T. Now here's where the stories differ. However, after talking to 4 people that were there, no one is saying anything worse happened ... just more mouth and yes, a second T from ref B.
Question, at this level, what would you do? Is a second T justified? After the first, would you signal the coach to control his player? Warn the boy that he's about to get a double and ejection? Or just T him again and hope he learns a lesson.

It depends on what was said, coach. Swearing isn't necessary, and if the player refused to be quiet after the first T; a second could be warranted. A lot of refs will give less latitude at this level to players' comments than they will at the varsity level.
By complaining about a call, players are forcing us to make a decision. By continuing to complain after receiving a technical foul, the player has demonstrated he just doesn't care.

I have no idea what I would do, I was not there. At this level my tolerance level for BS from players is the shortest of all the levels I would work. Also I think a lot of other officials would do the same if they are used to working. And the term is not double T. A double T would be between two players basically against each other. If a kid is running their mouth after they are given a T, then it is too bad for them. They should they will learn the next time and shut up (maybe).

Peace

The younger they are the less tolerant I am...I figure it's the right time to learn what is expected and what isn't, and I feel that not giving that lesson only means other officials will pay for my not setting them straight.

My initial reaction is that anybody who is offering an opinion would really have had to be there to say for sure what they might have done.

Is the second T justified? It's certainly possible. We don't know what he said, how he said it, whether his body language was confrontational or resigned, whether he was moving toward the officials or away. There are a number of factors.

Would I warn the kid he's headed for a second? Probably. Then again, if he's been all mouth and attitude all game, I might just unload him to be rid of him. In any case I'd rather that my partner got him the second time if he needed it.

Whether to involve the coach depends on several things. Has the coach been disdainful or hostile during the game? Had the officials tried to involve him previously? If so, how did that go? Was the coach attempting to get the kid off the floor, or was he sitting back watching to see what the refs would do about it?

Bottom line, lots of variables to consider. I'd have to be there to know what I would do.

He goes every time, Coach, every time.

The first "T" is his warning. If he wants to continue to yap, then he's throwing himself out - the official isn't. If the coach wanted to control him, then the coach should have been there <b>immediately</b> after the first "T" was called, or taught him not to whine in the first place.

There is absolutely no reason at all to take that nonsense at that level imo. And there's also never any reason to second-guess an official after the fact because a coach hasn't taught his players when to keep their mouth shut and how to act in a sporting fashion.

What stands out to me here is that the player has already earned a disqualification before either technical foul. So the referee is NOT throwing anyone out of the game here.

Now I usually allow some emotion from a player or coach on a disqualifying foul, but nothing unsporting and certainly nothing which shows up an official. It is natural for the kid to be upset or disappointed.

However, it seems that this youngster crossed that line and the official properly charged the technical foul. At this point the player still wasn't willing to control his behavior and go sit down nor does it sound like his adult coach stepped in and took control of him, thus the second technical foul.

You may or may not know that under NFHS rules it is perfectly permissible for an official to charge technical fouls to people who have already been DQ'd. If you really want to know even a third T (or more) could have been charged, if the situation warranted it.

I would have to call this an immature decision by a young player that really hurt his team. Hopefully, he will learn from this.

Triple T
 

A few years ago I was doing a JV game. The home team coach whined about every call and every no-call. In the third quarter I got tired of it and gave the coach the stop-sign and sais that I had heard enough. A few minutes later he again started to complain and took a few steps onto the court. Whack! As I stepped towards the table to report the T he said (loud enough that I couldn't ignore it) "you suck." Whack!. He then followed me to the table saying "go ahead, call another one on me." By that time my partner was there to help me out and he issued the third T. It turned out that there was no assistant coach and the game was over.

The next morning I faxed in a report of the incident (required in my county for any ejection). 24 hours later I had a phone call from the AD apologizing to me and saying that he knew that this coach was not yet ready to be a varsity coach.

BTW, in my county (Long Island, NY) anyone ejected is suspended for 1 game. A second ejection in the same season and they are gone for the rest of the season.

He whined at every call, and you waited until the third quarter? :eek:

Just think, if the guys who had him before you hadn't put up with him, you wouldn't have had to either.

NOt having been there it is hard to say exactly what I would hav edone personally however by looking at the way this is written I am going to have to saythat the player deserved it.
the player had just recieved his fifth foul from Ref A then made some demonstrative display about the call that was sufficient for Ref B to WHACK him the first time.
Ref B (at least he should have been) was a good 25 - 30 feet away and the actions he saw were sufficient to deserve a T any actions after that are just plain stupid on the part of both the coach and the player - the coach should have got him off the loor and the player should have shut the H2!! up, or quit dancing around the gym to get the second one.

I would have prefereded that 1 T came from each official but I don't seem to have a problem with it the way it sounds.

I had a similar experience a couple of years ago. Girls JV. Coach was a notorious whiner. Basically reffing from the bench. His team was lightyears better than the team they were playing, but due to his lack of focus on the game and instead having it on us, his team went in at halftime down 18 points. During our pregame, we basically said that we were just going to ignore him unless he directly showed us up to the crowd or got pesronally abusive to one of us.

At the half, I told my partner that he is approaching the point of getting whacked. First play of the second half, I am the Trail near his bench. Ball is on the baseline at the far end of the court and there is a routine out of bounds that my partner give to the other team. He complained about the call.

Without turning around, I gave him a VERY HIGH stop sign (so the video would catch it) and said, "OK coach I've had enough." He responded with "So have I". TWEET WHACK!

Now having to sit down, shut up and coach his team, they came back and won in OT.

As an aside, usually, teams take on the personality of their coach. If he's a complainer, then his players will complain and lose focus. They don't usually react well to any adversity that occurs in their game.

I tend to ignore coaches and not whack them. Some senior officials have told me I should whack them sooner, but most of my assignors (I work in 4 conferences) have indicated that they would prefer the way I do it, than become known as Mr. T.

Very interesting. Talk about a coach having to be good! I like this rule.

Its the same in Ohio. 2 ejections...gone for the year.

Quit worrying about if it was the right thing to do to the kid - the kid did it to himself - address that behavior - Referees do not create behavior - they react to the behavior of others and impose penalties based on others actions.
Yet we always see people asking if the referee was right to do what they did - not was the player right to do what they did?
Should the kid have gotten two technicals? Apparently so because he got them - would 5 out of 10 officials have responded differently - probably - however at that precise moment in time that official who was entrusted with the responsibility to call that particular game determined that kid needed to recieve two technical fouls for his actions - you have to back your officials on this - it is a judgment call.
In the rules it specifically states that "Disrespectfully addressing or contacting an official or gesturing in such a manner as to indicate resentment" - that is all it takes to get your own personal technical foul, and as you have heard a lot of us have less tolerance at the lower level's than than the higher ones for this sort of behavior.

In my humble opinion, this is where this thread takes a turn for the worst. This is a 13 year old and you are worrying about who gave him the two technical fouls? W O W !

Tom, he didn't say it was a bad call, he's just pointing out that it LOOKS better if both T's don't come from the same official. Can you really argue with that? I know it's early, but maybe try the decaf. ;)

A "stop sign" :rolleyes: that wasn't needed and what seems like a personal attack from a coach. I would have been there to administer the free-throws, but you would have first crack at all of these technical fouls. Situations where a partner should give a second (or third) technical should be when the possibility exists that an official has it in for a coach. I mean it could look like an official has it in for a coach. If a coach verbally attacks one official and doesn't back off after the first technical, what is wrong with an official giving both (or three :D) technical fouls?
Like JR just said, the first technical is a warning so I would probably do without the almighty, must happen, seems to be required, robotic, mechanic.........stop sign. Just my opinion.

If a 13 year old has the nerve to act up twice, I sure as H E double L have the nerve to slide two technicals his/her way. :D Nothing personal, I just don't go there with kids this age. I have never failed to find 10 players who want to play.

Why would you ignore him?

:rolleyes:

I often comment on threads like this and I don't want to make it seem like I give out technicals for any and everything. However, from many camps, assigners, conferences and officials - literally from coast to coast - I have learned (still learning) similar philosophies concerning technical fouls. Coaches don't care about a robotic stop sign you throw in their face. In some cases, it just pisses them off more. They care about communication. It is like an emotional roller coaster and normal life - we aren't always happy, sad or pissed off. I think coaches appreciate it if they know they can talk to an official in an adult manner and they also appreciate knowing that an official will go to the edge and do anything at any time (technical foul). From the first basket of the season to the last second of the championship game, I think they want to know that they can talk to you and know you will give them what they earn.

Yes, I am. Why should I consider whether the participants are 13 or 31? IMHO it is usually better if multiple T's come from different partners. If the come from one, the participant, coaches, parents (usually in the 13 yo, not always though :D), fans can leave with the feeling that the one ref had it in for the kid. If it comes from both partners, it's more likely that even a 13 yo kid will come away from the game realizing that he was the problem, not the ref, singular.

I agree with Scrappy: DE CAF :p

Do you know how many toxins are in coffee?

The bigger picture is a kid does something and gets two technicals on Tuesday. He does the same thing on Thursday and gets two technicals. On next Saturday he does the same things and gets two technicals. See where I'm going with this? I don't care if one arbitrary kid's parents think I have it in for little Johnny. Do you count how many fouls you call on little Johnny to make sure they are spread out evenly and his parents don't think you had something against him? What if little Johnny travels four times in a game? Does that mean you call two and your partner calls two?

I had a bagel with cream cheese, an apple (it was too soft) and I have a big bottle of water. No decaf needed! :D

I thought his "name" was Scrapper, not Scrappy!

Thanks to all for the feedback. I have the same thoughts, had to be there, stand by the official.

Another question. Official B issued T's (not a double T ;) ), same official has the next game for this team. Player can't play, if you were official B, would you get someone else to cover it?

This is up to the assigner, but as an official I'm not running away. It is just a technical foul or two.

Finally someone else gets the point - it is all on little Johnny! - All the official did was react to Johnny's actions at that moment in time.

the thing with the two differnt T's called by different officials is something I agree with - but that is more for upper level games and issues with the crew looking good.

You are mis-interpreting the situation. Coaches tend to learn what type of official you are and if you are the type to take a lot of grief, they will continue to give it to you, more and more each time as they try and find your limit, and if they never find it. They are going to continue to brutalize you. Coaches test your boundaries as well as kids. Understand the difference.

If I whack a coach for constant complaining, I am sending the message don't do it anymore in none of my games. The next time I have this coach he will remember me and not push it with me. This is what I want. They can also spread the word to all of there other friends that I don't take no sh!t. I think the thing you want to be aware of is the negative things that can ruin your game. Constant complaining coaches is one of those things that can make it a difficult night to work, even if nothing bad or controversial happens in the game. They are just bending your ear in a way that makes your job more stressful, and, like you've already stated, it causes the players to play worse, too. I'd say, we don't need to be more stressed than we already are. Look for these negative things that can make your games bad. Don't be afraid to penalize. Remember, good coaches are all about coaching there players.

I whacked a 10th grade coach yesterday without warning for constant complaining and informed him he must remain seated afterwards. I love that HS rule. The rest of this game and the next game, no more complaints from either coach, either bench. The way I like it. Now I can focus on calling the game, being consistent on both ends, etc....

Because thats what we always try to do with the whiners. As far as your rant about communication is concerned, I don't thinnk anyone here would dispute what you said. I will gladly communicate with any coach that demonstrates a desire to have some communication with me. Whining does not constute a willingness to do that. Yet having been a coach, I empathize with the frustration and pressure they feel, so I tend to ignore the whining if it doesn't interefere with my performance or inflame the crowd. When it does, (s)he gets the stop sign. I don't care, at that point, if they like the stop sign or not, because the next thing that happens after a stop sign is a T. By the time a stop sign is given, we're done communicating anyway.

You can say I'm too tolerant. Thats fine, and you are intitled to your opinion. But that tolerance is part of my personality and style and while I am not afraid to whack any coach that warrants it, I don't have a hair trigger either.

I gotta say, like most other officials, my tolerance is very low for unsporting behavior in lower level games. I would have no problem calling both T's in a JH game. The way I look at it is, yes, winning is important, but lower level basketball is where kids learn how to play and act when they get to the varsity level. Would you rather the kid get ran from a middle school game and learn his lesson, or keep acting inappropriately until he finally gets run in a varsity game? I'm not saying this is how every official feels on the subject, but this is my personal view of the situation. From the OP, I certainly would have called the first T and without being there I can't comment on the second.

Then you don't get what I'm saying either. This is a dynamic game with an infinite number of personalities and moods. To think it wrong that one official give two technical fouls on a single player or coach is a pipe dream. In other words (again) there are absolutely no absolutes. To go into a game thinking:

1. Coach or player acts up
2. After #1 is repeated I give stop sign (if #1 is done by coach if not go to #3)
3. If #1 is repeated after #2 then I give technical foul
4. If #1 is repeated after #1 and #2 a partner should give additional technical foul

Sounds rather boring, methodical and robotic to me. Plus, that isn't the way things happen in this game. If all partner practice good game awareness, sometimes things will go this way and sometimes they won't.

I agree with this. You can't put absolutes on what we do. Sometimes you have no choice but to call the T's yourself. I had a JV opener before a varsity game I posted about a couple of weeks ago. I had to call 2 easy ones on the home team in the opener and then I gave the varsity coach way too much leash becuase I didn't want to give the impression that I was only out there to throw the T. I won't make that mistake again. I should have ran the jerk. If the unsporting act is there, take care of business.

What would it take for a double T on a 13 year old boy?

It would take him raising his hands over his head and complaining and then continuing to complain after the first T. :)

The next time that I worry about what the fans think will be the first time.

You don't ignore unsporting behavior. You don't turn your back at unsporting behavior. You take care of bidness.

That "T's coming from two different officials" philosophy is meant for certain situations only imo. It sureasheck isn't meant for a ballplayer/coach that simply refuses to stop yapping, especially after having received a "T" already for doing so.

While reading this thread. The song playing on the radio had the lyrics..
"Nay nay nay nay... nay nay nay nay... hey hey... goodbye..... "
I guess that sums it up.
:D :D :D

I was hearing the "Left, right, left, right, SIT" chant from the student section.:D

Who said anything about ignoring unsporting behavior? All I said was and I never said don't give the kid the second T. Nor have I said to turn your back on unsporting behavior.

Mind you I am never afraid to whack any one twice in a game - or back to back - if needed I have done it at all levels over the years.
I am saying that it is preferable if it can happen that way that two technicals on the same person - are issued by two different officials -
in this case as an example - foul call by ref A - player complains T by ref A - continued complaining after ref A walks away - T by Ref B - it looks better on tape - to assignors defending your actions and as a crew having a united front.
Does it happen that way very often - probably not - but that is the way my college assignors and upper level Prep and High school assignors would like to see it happen in an ideal world.

But if the player needs to whacked two, three, or four times in a row ...:eek:
take care of business!:D

I whacked this one kid in a game and noone has seen or heard from him since -- if you have to whack twice you might need whacking practice

It is preferable if everyone thinks every call I make is a great call, but we know that is not going to happen anytime soon.

Look, if you are standing there and a player or coach cannot control themselves in a way not to get hit again, then shame on them.

Peace

I disagree completely with that. It looks like you're afraid to take care of your <b>own</b> business. The player was b!tching at <b>you</b>, not your partner. On tape to me, it looks like your partner had to come in and bail you out because you wouldn't penalize obvious unsporting behavior that was aimed directly at you.

I also disagree that upper-level assignors everywhere want to see that situation handled that way. Your's might, but I doubt that it's unanimous. Imo, most assignors/evaluators want to see whether an official will take care of bidness himself or whether they will walk away from conflict.

Again jmo, but I think that there's just too damn much over-analysis and over-thinking going on re: these types of plays anymore. And that's exactly why the NCAA and NFHS are constantly putting out POE's and directives to try and curtail unsporting behavior. If an unsporting act happens, just call the damn thing. Too many officials seem to think that they're failing in game mangement 101 if they do happen to call a "T".

End of rant.....

A-freaking-men!

Nice rant JR. I agree. Throwing a T doesn't mean you can't manage a game, it means a player or coach cannot manage themselves. Wow, that sounds kind of deep.:D

JR nice rant - I see your point - if the actions are immediate bang, bang, bang, then yes it should be foul - Whack - Whack - I have no problem there -
If you call the foul and the player rants WHACK him no big deal - but to walk away is to give the player the oportunity not to get whacked again - if they want it they surely will get it! from you or your partners.It is not a test of your manhood. You have taken care of business already - it is time for your partners to step up and take care of business too! If you have to go back and get him do so - then chew your partners out in the locker room for not having your back after the game.
How do you address the handling of T's in your pre-game?
in ours we don ot say Whack'em and stand there waiting to give the next one -
We walk away to report and a partner moves in, that is where the second one usually comes from!

Don't try to back off and fix it up now.

Whichever way the wind blows, huh?

Similar to what JR said, if you want to stand out to an assigner or at a camp, have the intestinal fortitude to do what is right. It might be two technicals or one technical and the door. I put the theory or two officials needing to give two technicals in the same bag of BS with constantly validating watching the ball all over the floor. :( "BOO, BOO" :(

Absolutely not! If it's me, I'm working that game.

This is very bad advice. If you whack a kid or a coach for bad behavior, get out of there! It is not about you. Go to the table, report your technical then go to other side of the court. You do not need to hit them with another tech right away, you got administrative duties to perform, go do that. Game management skills.

Totally disagree again. Part of my pre-game, especially big games, especially games where a clinician might be there. You call a technical, report it and go to the other side of the court. This is good technique! You are emotional, coach is emotional. What we don't want to happen at that precise moment is you to give the coach/player another T and they are ejected.

Walking away from conflict? That's putting it too simple. It's how you handle conflict that's important, and you addressed it with a technical, and you walked away. Most assigners want to see how well you call a game, get into position, your judgement on the floor, under fire. I think after you access a T and you go to the opposite side of the court will please the assigners better than you standing there giving them 2 technicals.

Thank god because that's exactly what that was. Quite telling officials to go out and call multiple technical's. One technical is good and it shows you have attempted to address the situation. Now, get away from the situation momentarily to give it a chance to slimmer down. If a 2nd T needs to get called, it will get called. Hopefully, it's not at the same time and not by the same official.

So what you are saying is if you call a T on a coach or player and that coach or players goes nuts on you and while you are at the table reporting, we are just supposed to ignore them? You are the wrong person to talk about bad advice considering the comparisons you made in the NBA fight post.

Why not? Speak for yourself there cappy. ;)

If a player or coach cannot handle themselves enough to not get the second one, then that is there problem. They should realize they got a T for a reason. To keep running your mouth or continuing antics, then so be it.

The court is only so big. Not sure where you can go. If the player comes after you I have no problem giving a coach a T and multiple Ts at that. Especially at the lowest of levels I feel it would send a message.

Peace

Officiating is a situational thing where our judgment is called into action.

We can have all kinds of philosophies, and agree with them or disagree with them all we want, but no philosophy can trump doing what is needed within those situations that occur.

I can say it's better that a partner give the second, but when the situation calls for me giving both...then I'm giving both.

You can say don't call one for your partner when the coach or player is after them, but if we are working with a partner, like say Iref4u2, I'll go get one before I let a game go in the toilet.

We have to do what is best for the game at that time and worrying about philosophies, what assignors would think, or anything else shouldn't enter the picture.

Actually, I stated my position rather nicely. You got a problem with it. Quite beating around the bush and come out with it! You wanted to address just about everything other than the issue at hand. Hell, I got tired of trying to follow you. Only thing I can say is I'm glad people that think like you are not in positions of leadership, because we all know what you would have done about that incident. NOTHING!!!!

Getting the second one is a matter of judgment. The reason we have put this into our pregame is to prevent such a confrontation/situation from escalating. Isn't this good game management? At least we are trying....

Note: it is apart of our pregame. When a technical is called, we all run over to the spot to determine what just happen and what to do next. If we got a volatile situation, we get the calling official out of there. The thinking is to protect the official, protect the coach, protect the integrity of the game, protect our game. If we can handle the situation without ejecting the coach, we are going to try. If the coach wants to air his concerns, he can air it to one of the non-calling officials. The non-calling officials job is to calm the coach and listen to the their concerns. 9 out of 10 times this works and we can continue the game w/o any ejections. In the one time it doesn't, we still follow our procedures and if we do it right, another official will signal the 2nd T.

Too funny...we have a T, so the solution to calm things is to put 3 officials at the spot?

I agree that the calling official should try to move away, but not to avoid giving a second T, it's so that the official looks calm and professional, and the coach or player looks bad if they chase the official.

Also in NFHS the coach loses the box, so at that point I believe a non-calling official should go over to inform the coach, but it's not to allow the coach to voice their concerns, it's to remove some of the emotion and hopefully diffuse the situation.

If I'm going over to notify the coach I'm not talking to the coach, I'm observing the players. If the coach wants to use that first FT to talk to my backside...CALMLY...so be it, but after that second FT goes up, they get told to sit and I'm going about getting the ball back into play.

A philosophy is all well and good, but in practice, almost every 2 T ejection I have been involved with has been a BANG, BANG situation. There was no chance to get away or allowing the second T to be given by a partner.

I realize this is 4 pages old already, but that's what happens when you don't get on here all day.;)

From a coach's perspective, the first time I yelled at a player this season was midway through a 10 game schedule, with 6th graders. A player thought he was fouled, and did the classic raise your hands, look at the ref move. There was a TO right after that, and I ripped into the kid. He didn't get a T, but I wish he did. This is almost identical to the OP, and IMO, if you let a younger kid get away with this, all it does is encourage it in the future. By the way, the only comments I got from parents afterwards were saying that they liked to see me get into the kid for this, so I think that is a good sign.:)

Where do you live? I ask this because I don't ever want to do a game with you! What you said above is total BS and it is officials like you who make it hard for other officials. It is well into the season and I have probably been stating my opinion stronger than normal because I feel a sort of state of emergency where high school officials are concerned because too many things do not go right in a high school game.

It is best I don't really say how I feel about this because it is tough to do with out cursing or name-calling.
Why do you have to go and "console" a coach after your partner gives him/her a technical foul? Why does the non-calling official have to calm down another adult? It makes it look like it is necessary or correct to lend a coach an ear after he does something wrong. You talk about game management, but you can't manage a cohesive crew? The BS flag is flying high right now. You don't really know game management or game awareness. You really don't!

This thread is only two pages on my computer. Do personal settings make a difference?

Possibly, if you're using the "ignore" feature for instance.

You DO realize that earlier in this thread you said you would work with him. don't you?

I was just thinking the same thing :D

This alone was worth following all 4 pages. :D

I had a similar situation in MS game last year early in the season. I called a foul on a player who reached out and whacked the shooter across both arms. He put both hands on his head, jumped up and shouted "I didn't touch him!" I T'd him up immediately. About one minute later, as he was guarding the inbounds passer, he reached across the line and knocked the ball from the thrower's hand. Tweet. He was gone. He only lasted about 3 minutes in the game, but I lost no sleep over it. Coach told me I was too nit-picky.

I got told the other night that I was calling traveling too much. Boys Freshman had hippity-hop syndrome when they caught the ball. Of course, he wanted me to call more when the other team had the ball.

Yes.

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I too noticed this giving when giving this thread a quick read. I had a chuckle. :)
Additionally, there is the factor that some here have stated that they don't believe that Old School is really an official.

Huh? Dude, go back to your rec league before you tell me what I would have done. Or get some professional help, which ever comes first.


You can pre-game this all you like, that is not going to prevent a coach from going ape sh!t.

I agree that ejection of a coach is not the first choice, but I am not afraid to pull the trigger either. Sounds like you are afraid to pull the trigger. If I am not non-calling official, I am not calming anyone down. I may say something to the coach to let them know I will give an explanation, but I am not calming anyone down for any reason. Also, I cannot think of any time where I needed to have a pre-game for this issue. Either you know how to deal with these situations or you do not.

Peace

Are we still having serious debates with Old School? :rolleyes:

<b>Serious</b> as in "Are you <b>serious</b>?:D

I'm flabbergasted by this thread. Here, we are taught, instructed, judged, and critiqued on how we handle the coaches in that specific situation. And while calming down may be a little strong a term, one of the other officials is required to be by the bench and how he handles the coach will be critiqued. I know first hand that ignoring a coach who has been teed that is trying to communicate his perspective is judged as poor game management. It happened to a partner of mine after I had whacked a coach. The assignor was in the stands and ripped my partner a new one after the game.

I don't paint little whistles on my car door for every time I whack a coach. I don't view coaches as part of the evil empire. I also recognize that they can cross a line and get teed. ALOT of the time, they realize it too and the T can get them to calm down which makes for a better game. If me or a partner can help them calm down, then thats good game management.

But helping them calm down doesn't mean I'm throwing my partner under the bus either. But a professional demeanor even after an incident can help defuse a situation. Ignoring a coach is NOT considered good communication skills and therefore not good game management.

OK...now bring on the flames.

Could someone please direct me to the page in the officials manual that says a partner should calm a coach who has just been T'd?

If my partner T's a coach, reports the foul, and the coach is not sitting, then I will go tell the coach that he has to sit. I will say (perhaps with these very words): "Coach, you have to sit now." That's it. No discussion of anything, as I'm not there to explain anything to him, nor am I responsible for his state of mind.

I don't consider that "calming the coach." If the coach wants to get in my kitchen, he can be done for the night - his choice.

There is a big difference between doing your job professionally and the philosophy being proposed by Old School and apparently your assignor...and for what it's worth, my HS partner comes from Ohio so I know first hand of the unique and sometimes completely against the manual, like no team control signal, way they do things.;)

As I stated earlier: In the NFHS the coach loses the box, so at that point I believe a non-calling official should go over to inform the coach, but it's not to allow the coach to voice their concerns, it's to remove some of the emotion and hopefully diffuse the situation.

If I'm going over to notify the coach I'm not talking to the coach, I'm observing the players. If the coach wants to use that first FT to talk to my backside...CALMLY...so be it, but after that second FT goes up, they get told to sit and I'm going about getting the ball back into play.

By doing it that way, I'm doing what I'm supposed to do following a T...notifying the coach and observing the players...I'm being professional and calm, but I'm not interacting with that coach. The smart coach realizes that they have an opportunity to vent a little, based on my location, but again they will be doing so to my backside and in a equally calm and professional manner.

The distinction may seem subtle, but by not saying anything but coach you have lost your box, this does usually work very well at calming the situation...key word being situation, not coach...by giving a location that provides the coach may be heard, but in a way that nobody gets the idea that you are working a good cop, bad cop deal and selling your partner down the river by comforting the coach.

The distinction is that in one case you're forestalling unsporting behavior...maybe...at least you're trying to; in the other case, you're simply ignoring unsporting behavior that has already occurred.

Some officials can't seem to see the difference, unfortunately imo.

This is all semantics...no one is talking about selling anyone down the river. I even said "not throwing my partner under the bus."

I have no problem with what you are saying. My point is, that good game management skills include good communication skills. Letting a coach "vent" to my back, without inciting the crowd, might work for you. I've done it too. I'll even reply to him if I feel its warranted. It might be all he needs. It depends on who the coach is, and what the problem was. Every situation is different.

Even how you tell the coach he has to sit can be done in a good way as well as a bad way. LOL I had a partner once tell the guy "SIT!" like he was a dog. Fortunately, I've never worked with that guy again.

Typing a position piece on a forum bbs is a tough way to communicate. I just get the feeling from this and other threads that some guys DO actually paint little whistles on their car doors like fighter pilots.

I use little magnets; they're easier to remove when the T gets retracted by the state or when I get a new car. ;)

Then you should not be an official. Often things happen at a very high emotional level in the game and it is up to us to keep things calm. Remember, we control the game, that is our responsibility. If you and the others want to stoop to the level of the coaches/players who are very upset at the moment, then go right ahead. Don't get mad at me because I might try to defuse the tense situation first in order to save face for everyone.

Officials should not be afraid to give a technical when a technical is deserved. Officials should not be afraid to toss a participant when it is deserving. However, officials should try to use discretion and not be to overly aggressive in tossing a coach. With that being said, let me give some examples.

1.) I T up a coach for constant complaining. After I give the T signal, coach says you're an azzhole. Head to the showers coach, ejected.

2.) I T up the coach for constant complaining. After I signal the T and report to the table. Coach is still complaining about the call. We come together as a crew to discuss what just happen and the next steps. The crew observes the coach is still livid about a call, sends the reporting official opposite table and begins Tech. Foul procedure. One official is left standing at the table.

This official standing at the table can just stand there and observe the FT procedures or if he hears the coach going on an on, can attempt to discuss the situation with the coach in an attempt to hear his concerns and give an answer. THIS OFFICIAL DOES NOT HAVE TO DO THIS! However, at the time the crew sent calling official opposite table, the crew could decide that the most senior person be left table side, or the person that has a relationship with the coach that's upset be left table side, or the R for the game. This is simply imo, intelligent officiating and yes, some of us do do this.

When talking to a coach in a situation like this.
Coach says; that official is an azzhole!
Official: coach, please don't talk like that about my partners.
Coach: he blew that call! this is BS!!!
Official: I did not see the play in question so I have no comment on that
Coach: you guys are horrible! This is BS!!!
Official: nobody's perfect coach, we don't need that type of talk out here.
Coach: you guys are still horrible! I don't care what you say or do!!!
Official: okay coach, I've heard enough, no more! Walk away.

I get partners together before we put ball back in play. Coach says another word, whack him, he's out of here. In most situations, this little dialog gets everybody back on the same page, coach airs his concerns and gets a much needed response from us, recognizing that we attempted to answer his question, even though he didn't get the answer he wanted. We can now resume the game with hopefully no further problems. In the rare cases where coach does a Bobby Knight on you. It's good-by to showers coach.

In my situation, we attempted to resolve the problem as a crew. We took the emotion and overreaction out of the equation. I think this looks good. I think it looks better. Coach got a warning before he was just tossed. You can put this in the report and it's defensible by the assigner. However, if you choose #1 above. It's your word against the coach and it is not defensible by your assigner. The coach might say he was talking to his player and told him to go to the hole! The ref thought I was talking to him.

My point is, always try to use discretion (benefit of the doubt) b4 tossing a coach because you never know. You do not know the relationship the assigner might have with the A/D and or the coach. They may attend the same church together, or families may get together at thanksgiving every year. I little discretion might keep you on the court, a quick trigger might land you on the bench for the big games, if you know what I mean.

The bigger the game, the bigger the stakes.

This is so stupid it's actually funny.

More sad than funny, Smitty. More sad than funny.

Just be thankful that he doesn't referee real basketball.

I'm a little troubled he's sort of on the same side of the argument as me!:D

I'm a little troubled that some folks actually take Old School's posts seriously. It's like watching Pro Wrestling or Jerry Springer.

Rec league? Excuse me? Perhaps you are the one that needs some professional help. Anyone that compares an NBA brawl to violence in a Catholic community, and argue they are one in the same needs professional help. And I still think Isiah started it.

Actually Old School I did not make any comparison about Catholic schools other than to state that the fight that took place outside of a game I worked, happen with two Catholic schools. I would not assume a fight was inherent of the schools or the administration of those schools. You on the other hand compared the fight in the NBA to the Black community and suggested that the two somehow tied into each other when in every other sport there are fights is tied directly to a specific community. Then on the other hand, I am not the only person here questioning your background or your officiating ability.

Peace

I haven't read this thread in a while, but what is there to debate about running a JH kid? They are there to learn to play, not complain. I can't believe this thread has run on past 5 pages. I guess I'm adding to it though huh? I

I guessed I was fooled into thinking another official - another adult - could be consistent. Shame on me, because I know better.

You bought it into the discussion which means you are wrong again.

Yes, black on black crime, Humm..., they do kind of tie together, don't they? But the Catholic community, NOT! How did we get here again?

People always question someones ability when they dare to speak the truth. Yes, my intergity is in question, but my message stays the same. Isiah started it!

Where are you officiating at? If you call a T in the second half, does an official have to be by the coach? I don't think so. Do you call two man or three man? In a two man game, does an official ever have to be by the coach? I don't think so.
You do NOT have to calm a coach down and if your assigner ripped you a new one then your assigner needs to learn a thing or two about how things are perceived. It shouldn't be necessary for an official to calm a coach down after an earned technical. Let the assistant - which you have probably already communicated with in length - calm down the coach.

If a technical foul is called in the second half on a coach, there is no reason for an official to be next to a coach. Furthermore, by going up to a coach and telling him/her they must be seated, an official is opening themselves up for the coach to blast them more. If an official keeps a good distance (15ft +) the official can clearly and loudly say, "Coach you must remain seated." The official's duty is done, the coach knows they must sit and anything the coach says will be loud enough to make an additional T easy.

This was 3 person mechanic. The partner was reprimanded for his lack of communication skills. Do I HAVE to calm the coach down? No. He can continue down the same road he's already on and we as partner's can draw straws to see who gets to do the paperwork for the ejection;) . But I do have to provide some form of communication if requested and in Ohio's case remind the coach that he's wearing a seatbelt. How I handle that CAN calm the coach down, have no effect or enflame the situation. In my mind, the first is the best outcome of the three, so if I can accomplish that without affecting my and my partner's performance...all the better.

But again, let me make this clear....throwing someone under the bus is not an option. Those two partners are the only friends I have that night. I think we are all dancing around semantics. (except for JR's Buddy:D )

I'm not talking about cursing during a game or at a coach/player. I was talking about cursing and name-calling directed towards you!

I also have to apologize to my fellow real officials; I wouldn't work with you if we were digging a ditch!

"Coach, you must remain seated." Then I turn and move towards the center circle in the first half or I turn and remain in the front court (since I was never in the backcourt in the first place) during the second hal. How does that cause further emotion either way from the coach? If the coach earned a T, why does it matter if my communication does anything to calm the coach down or not? I agree, I don't want to bait the coach, but I'm not going to use soothing words either. I can picture you right up next to the coach after your partner gives a technical foul.

On a similar note, I had a partner come to me and ask me what a player did after a technical so he could tell the coach - in the second half! For one, I can explain things for myself. Second, there is no reason to be by the coach in the second half. Finally, he said the I HAD to tell him (my partner) what the kid did so he could tell the coach. He was probably offended after I laughed in his face when he told me this in the locker room. I will communicate (at the appropriate time) and I will be fair. I'm not Dr. Phil!

Can you tell me who was arrested for this fight in MSG? Can you name one person? The fight did not happen in the middle of a playground somewhere, it happen during a sporting event. And the fact that you even said Black on Black crime shows how stupid you are. So if there was a white player and a Black player that threw punches in this game, would have have considered this a racial riot?

I am questioning your ability because of the responses you have given in this post and others. They are so way off base or out of many officials are taught or experience, it is clear to me that you are trying to make yourself out to be something that you are not. Also have never had a major pre-game issue with very experienced officials on what to do on a T other than we usually talk about not giving a coach a free shot at each of us without penalty. I never tell someone how to handle a coach or what to do if their behavior is out of line. I will agree that a non-calling official can be a calming influence because they likely are not the officials a coach is mad at. But that does not mean they get a free shot or it would be the non-calling official's job to calm anyone down. If the coach or player pops off, then they are the ones that rolled the dice. Not everyone is going to tolerate your BS. The way you talk about things is the reason I think you are clueless and the discussion above is confirms to me why you are clueless. Black on Black crime now that was funny.

Peace

Nobody is saying that you have to calm down a coach. No one is saying this at all. However, you do need to process some people skills. If a coach asks you a question, you are obligated to answer the question. If you ignore the coach, even in a tense situation, that looks worse, imo. Coaches will become even more irate if you ignore them. That is a proven fact.

Now let's play this out a minute. Coach is ejected. Coach tells his boss A/D that those officials wouldn't answer my questions, they ignored me and then gave me a T for complaining too much. A/D calls assigner after reviewing game tape and asks the assigner, why did your officials not answer my coaches questions? We accept the T and ejection but I'm a little concerned that the crew you send over here is too inexperienced to work at this level. We do not want officials that are too intimidated that they can't answer a direct question from our coach in the heat of battle.

You are the only one that is saying this. You obviously have no people skills, whatsoever. Quick lesson. If someone is yelling at you, and you respond back in a calm manner, it has a tendency to calm the person that is yelling. Another proven fact. Customer communications 101. No one is advocating calming down an irate coach, at least I'm not. Responding too direct questions from a coach is a must, and they will come right after a technical, expect them to come right after a T, which is why I suggest calling official go opposite table in 3 person. In 2-person, calling official can go administrator FT's.

Every time I think I should stop reading this incessant thread, someone makes a funny. :D

Now, where did I put that trophy?

Funny, you said in another thread that you loved the way we handled that situation...on a second half T.;)

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...492#post359492

No, you and the others are.

Judging by all of your posts, maybe you need to start.

Bingo! Point made! That is all I am trying to convey.

It only took six pages and a ton of insults. Believe it or not, you guys are improving. There is hope for you old dogs to learn something new. :D

Then you need to say this to the multiple D1 officials that told me this directly at camps or in conversation. Not saying they are right, but I bet they are working games you have not worked and there is more at stake for their mistakes.

Go back to the rec league and try that crap there. It is obvious you are a wannabe trying to prove you know something. Maybe your real name is JMO.

Peace

I don't think what I posted was that much different from what you said and what I agreed with. You told the coach he must sit and showed him your back side. What is the problem with that? It is funny how nobody has mentioned why an official should be beside a coach in the second half. I actually know why, but whatever.

You sir, Removed by Tomegun. Don't get it twisted and think people skills will take the place of officiating skills. Some officials have to talk their way out of more stuff because of what they do. You are probably clueless on the court.

Dr., I think we're ready for a diagnosis now.

Narcissistic Delusions of Grandeur projecting his faults onto others around him.

Mechanically, my partner and I administered the FTs backwards...this is 2 person...and instead of being at the normal trail location I was near the division line, tableside.

Most of the players are at or near the division line while you shoot a T, so being high at trail makes observing them easier, and doing so from tableside puts you around 15 feet from the coach, a good range so that they feel you can hear them and close enough for you to deliver the seatbelt message without being right beside them.

It also puts you right there for when a table asks if that T counts as a team foul, which happens from time-to-time too.;)

And to show you we are on the same page...a first half T in 3 person, puts the trail right beside the coach that got banged...2nd half mechanically, you'd be beside the shooting teams coach.

First of all I do not care what position you take, I feel it is a dumb position you are taking. If you want to jump up and down and get in the way of the coach and your partner and it works for you, be my guest. I do not give a damn what you do. I am just pointing out those officials that work games at a higher level than most here do not agree with your position. Also I do not give out a lot of Ts because I do not have to. And when I speak to coaches, they do not challenge many things I say. I never have to calm down a coach, I tell them what took place and I tell them I will find out information from other officials when needed. And depending on where you claim you are moving up to, it is not going to go over well if you are trying to justify something to a coach about a veterans call. But you seemed to know better than anyone. It is not like you are not talking to a lot of very experience officials on this site. You just have proven that you know nothing about officiating and trying to convince the rest of us you do. Now that is the truth, can you handle those apples? ;)

Peace

OK, no problem with that. Your 15 feet distance also means the coach will have to be pretty loud to continue whatever got him/her the T in the first place.

I only asked about where an official should be in the second half because other people have posted about being beside the coach after a T is given and there is no reason to be beside a coach (who just got a T) in the second half.

Except if he/she asks you a question.

He or she just got a technical foul and I've been doing this long enough to know better; obviously you don't know better. If the question has to do with the technical foul, my partner will be over there soon to answer any questions about the technical. If it doesn't have anything to do with the technical, it can wait.

I have to go - I have to go and work on my people skills on the court. :rolleyes: Old School, this officiating thing might not be for you.

Naw, just his posting name at McGriffs. Hey, he's doing exactly what he did at McGriffs too. Argue with <B>everybody</b> about basics. We've already established from other threads that he doesn't own any rulebooks, case books or the MANUAL, which is all you need to know about his claims about being an official. He keeps the masquerade going though. Unbelievable.