That is a sad commentary.
 

If that is all it takes to make them role models, then this is why this society as a whole has a lot of problems. We have really set the bar very low if athletes are role models instead of parents, teachers and people kids come in contact with every single day.

Peace

How about that 201-78 NCAA-M game recently? :D

It's not an either/or scenario, Jeff. The problem is too often these guys are role models instead of parents, teachers, etc. It's not right, and it's not ideal. H3ll, I think it's a sure sign of major societal problems. While it may or may not be the way things should be. It's the way they are. Barkley may bemoan the fact all he wants; it's his right. But his money came from people who looked up to him at one level or another.
I like Barkley, I always have; but I think he was wrong on this.
Last week I had two wide open layups cancelled by shoves from behind. I ruled the first an intentional; and my partner ruled the second one flagrant. Obviously this happened before the brawl in New York; but how much of it is some sort of trickle down effect from kids who see the NBA players as people to emulate?

Perspective is a good thing.
 

I think the people who tend to overplay the issue of athletes as role models are the adults. Just like the media plays up the issues of video games and assumes that violent video games are played by 10 year olds rather than what the average gamer really is, 33 years old.

My point is there have always been fights at sporting events. There are fights when athletes on any level get together and emotions are high. There were fights in the 70s, 80s and 90s in the NBA and involving some of the best players in the game. Dr. J, Larry Bird, Isiah Thomas, Magic Johnson, Charles Barkley, Michael Jordan, Reggie Miller and Moses Malone just to name a few all had notable fights when I was growing up and I never wanted to do that in a game. There are fights every season with baseball teams that throw at each other and all the benches clear. There were fights with fans in Chicago at both Wrigley and Comisky Park (at the time) in the past 5 years (Dodgers at Wrigley and fans coming out of the stands at Comisky). Every other game there is a fight in the NHL. I remember a time when the benches were allowed to clear. Then the NHL cracked down and allowed fighting but ejected players for leaving the bench. Hockey is the only sport that allows players to fight and still stay in the game. This year in NASCAR not only did drivers go at it by throwing helmets at cars and pushing matches after trading paint, but girlfriends got into it off the track as well. There were fights across the world in Soccer situations; even the World Cup had a head butt from a star player and was ejected in the Final game. Let us not mention all the fights in Europe during club league games. There was even an incident last year where flares were thrown on the field and hit a player and FIFA did not allow fans of this team to go to these stadiums. The stadiums were completely empty during sanctioned FIFA games. Did the kids not see these events?

My point is if you do not know the history, you tend to repeat it. There are a lot of ugly moments in sports and this was just one of many. I know in my state there were a few incidents where fans got into fights and games were cancelled long before the Artest situation ever took place. These incidents are just an example of how violent our society is and sports just reflect this. We are in a war for God's sake. It is not like these are the only bad things we see on TV. We just live in a 24 hour news cycle and SportsCenter comes on 20 times a night. When Dr. J and Larry Bird got into fisticuffs, SportsCenter only came on at 10:00pm and if you missed it, you likely did not see the highlights until the next day. If you did not watch those highlights, you did not see them again. There was no internet or UTube.com or On Demand source to watch anything that took place in the world. College students at one time were dying on college campus because of riots. How many riots have you seen in today’s society? You have to put some things in perspective. I am not saying kids never are influenced by anything that takes place, but they have a lot more bad examples than what happen in the NBA this weekend.

Peace

No doubt Jeff, but where do we draw the line. I agree that there is problems in our society but fighting is not the answer. You talk like this is an accepted practice. I will agree that it is a sad reality of life but i refuse to accept it. I acknowledge it but i don't accept it. Your hockey example is outstanding. This is why i like debating with you. I don't know what the hell is wrong with the people that run hockey, maybe that's why the sport is not that popular or it's popularity and financial stability has not kept up with the other major sports in the US. Unfortunately, here, we are talking about basketball, and just because one group does it, doesn't make it right, okay, or accepted for the other to do it.

I think I can speak for a lot of people here. We want our basketball to be better than those other sports. You stated people that don't know history or prone to repeat it. What about us that do know history, or we not obligated at some point to not see a person go down that path again because we know what the results will be. Isiah, he's an idiot, just like George Bush, just like Karl said. He did the same thing to Denver that Denver did to him in NY, but did Denver complain, did they start delivering hard fouls, or say to the Knick players you better not shoot a layup.

Here's the problem I have with Isiah. There are young men out here that would go thru a wall for Zeak. If you are going to start a war between young men, let's make sure it's something worth fighting over, much the same that if the president is going to send our bravest citizens to war, let's make sure we put them in a position to win the war. In Zeak's case, 20 points, bb game, come on!!!! 50 points like what happened to me in an AAU game that I was coaching, okay. I don't care if Zeak's upset, don't work in the kitchen if you can't stand the heat. I'm with Karl on this on. I'm teaching my guys how to close out games. Got nothing to do with NY or Isiah.

It is very clear that you do not know how to read what is being discussed. I am also saying this based on other coversations I have read from you on this site (and others BTW). Can you show anywhere I said it was acceptable to fight? I am not running from any of my comments, but where did I say that?

I think you are obsessed with Isiah. These are professionals that have proven in the past they do not listen to Isiah or anyone else and all of a sudden what Isiah says goes? Dude it was a fight in an NBA game, it was not the Zeburta film (sp?).

Peace

You didn't say it was acceptable but the position you took supported the outcome, in other words, the end justified the means. You felt that the opposition was being disrespectful to the Knicks, so therefore, this fight was justified. Because you bought in all the other sports and there fights into this debate, you are saying that it is a normal part of our society, get use to it, sh!t happens....
That's BS sir. Last year, the Knicks where destroyed just about every night. There was never any brawl like what happened here. What is the differance? We got Zeak coaching instead of Larry Brown. We got Zeak (the coach) telling a player not to go to the hole if he knows what's good for him. Remember when I told you that players can pick up what a coach is thinking without the coach even saying anything. Well, if Zeak is speaking to another player on the opposition team like this! I rest my case. I am not obsessed with Zeak, I am sick of his BS. Leave the BS off the NBA court.

Along with great power comes an even greater responsibility (Peter Parker).

You obviously have a problem understanding points of view on this website. I brought up other sports to show that I do not see people here making these major issues when similar incidents take place in other sport. We do discuss other sports on the basketball board and there are members who post on the other sports specific boards. If you actually can understand what is said, you would have understood that. Remember, you brought up the "Black community" in this discussion trying to suggest that somehow this was a reflection of or a result of that because of a fight in the NBA.

Wait a minute. Whose player threw a punch? Whose player threw a punch and ran away? Were the Nuggets in any brawls last year? Did the Nuggets have the same coach?

As I said you have an obsession with Isiah and that is your right to feel that way. But please stop trying to talk about Isiah to me because personally I do not care.

Peace

I see you have made this statement several times that I do not understand what is being discussed. I will tell you this. I am talking speifically about the incident that occurred in NY. I do not care about some other topic that took place at some other point in time. We can not address all the issues that are wrong with sports in this one discussion. However, like I was telling my son who has multiple problems with his vechicle. We have to fix these problems one step at a time. We can't skip and go to problem B before correcting problem A. I'm staying focus on the one problem, you want to make this a general problem, where all kind of other intangibles come into the mix. Go right ahead, I can't stop you. This is one of the very reasons why we can't move forward in society because before we get the one problem solved, we are bringing other problems into the arguement.

Is the black community point what got you obsessed here? Is that what you are trying to defend without directly talking about it? Yes, I did bring it up because I stand for a better community, a better way of life for our African American brothers. I will admit I viewed this brawl thru bias eyes. My arguement is this, we got 10 brothers playing a game they love, at Madison Square Garden of all places, getting paid, getting all the limelight, why the hell are they fighting one another when the game is obviously over? In this case, it was pretty sh!t. They turned a professional game of bb into a back yard street game. This is not what we want, this is not hockey, and I blame that on Isiah.

To me this is just another example of how the NBA keeps moving closer to professional wrestling. It won't be long and they'll be knocking out officials with a chair too keep from being disqualified while beating the other team over the head with their sneakers. :D The NBA, it's FAAAAANNNTASTIC! And to me, borderline unwatchable.

The issue in NY was just that an incident. You have talked about how it means in the bigger picture. You have talked about how kids are going to behave as a result of this fight. Considering what I have seen at games in my state and surrounding areas, this incident was tame. The very same night of this NBA brawl there was a fight outside the school where I officiated a game while the game was going on or when the fight broke out. No kids saw the tape of the NY-Denver game at that point. BTW, the game involved the two sons of Michael Jordan (they were not involved but it is ironic that we are talking about the NBA). I can also think of 3 incidents where games were cancelled and even one team was suspended from participating in any basketball event for a year as a result of an incident during after a playoff game. So there is violence all over the place and this NBA game was not the first and it will not be the last. I heard about the Knick-Nuggets brawl on the way home in my car as police were whipping by me to break up a fight outside of a Catholic school. Now was this fight a reflection of the Catholic religion?

I was trying to figure out why you even made this statement at all? What did some NBA game have to do anything in the Black community? Does a fight in the NHL reflect on people from other countries or Canada? Do NASCAR fights and comments reflect on the southern community? Does a MLB fight reflect on the Latin/Hispanic and rich suburban kids?

I guess rich folks that go to Cubs games and got into a fight with the Dodger players at Wrigley field is a direct reflection on the people in Wrigleyville (which btw is not an African-American Community by any means) and all Cubs fans that attend games. Considering that there are not many African-Americans that go to baseball games at all and definitely not to Cubs games, I guess I should make some assumptions about the people I saw in that melee? And these were not rich athletes throwing things at the L.A. Dodgers. These were every day regular people who happened to be at a baseball game during the summer.

I am tired of when Black people do something it is about our community and not about the individual. These players are individuals and if they got into a fight there are many examples of the same behavior around the sporting world. If you cannot tell your son that, then maybe he needs another role model in his life to teach him how to be a man. ;)

Peace

That's ludicrous. How many brawls were in the NBA in the last 5 years? How many in other professional sports?

If the NBA is getting closer to professional wrestling, than what can you say about the NFL, or National Felons League? The Yankees and Red Sox alone probably have more brawls than the NBA.

Not sure where you're going with this one. I hate to even ask. You are boucing off the boards like a ping-pong ball. Let me bring it home for you. Unfortunately, in most black communities around America, there is "more" violence. Keyword here is more. Crime is higher in black American communities. True, violence is in all communities, and in all sports, and it will never ever rid itself from sports because of the nature of the game. But for basketball, one can only hope!

Keep Hope Alive!

There is? Wow, I guess the shooting that took place a couple weeks ago outside of a very affluent community around here was a Black community. Funny, every time I have worked games with the two schools in those districts, I did not see a single Black player in them. Better yet, there are many Black communities around here that nothing happens.

Do you have any stats that back this up? I live in the surrounding Chicago area and I hear of a lot of shootings and incidents and those communities are not in "Black" communities. As a matter of fact I worked a basketball game with a cop that is from the area where I live and told me that they do not make public a lot of crime because they do not want the publicity that their community has problems. Kind of like how college campus all over the country not reporting the number of rapes and robberies so no prospective students do not realize the safety issues at play. I grew up in a rural town and there were a lot of crime and this was by far a "Black community."

Peace

It's not so much about the brawls, it's about the fact that entertainment seems to be more important than winning and losing. I can't watch the NFL either. The only thing that keeps me into baseball is I like hearing the crack of a bat and not a ping.