NBA...at it again!
 

Another NBA melee spills over into the stands. Knicks and Nuggets have 10 players ejected after a brawl with 1:15 remaining in the game. Suspensions to follow.

Moderators: This discussion is about a fight at an NBA game. I respectfully request that you delete any posts made by any poster that may lead this thread down the path of another racial war. Thanks!

Lemme guess... you didn't like that the previous thread became a racial issue and as thread starter, you were able to delete the entire thread. You then (re-)started the/this thread.

1) I think it's very fortunate that none of the fans at MSG were hit or decided to take a cheap shot at a player. That could have escalated it even further.

2) All 10 players on the court were ejected. When the NBA office reviews the tape, I wonder if there will punishments for the officials if it is determined that any of the 10 ejected players was not involved in the fight.

3) All comments about individual players deleted!! :)

Who was on the game? I know Violet and Bavetta but who was the third? Just curious.

Robbie Robinson (#53) was the 3rd

As a general observation, watching this morning, the first thing that came across my mind is that one of the security staffers quickly directed the others to ignore what was going on on the court and, instead, focus on the fans.

Probably a good idea after the mega-brawl. That said, at that level of MSG, I'd worry more about a nice pinot noir being thrown than a cheap plastic-cup beer. :p

You're a genius!

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/fingers/fing25.gif

Personally, I didn't think the foul was that bad. I don't see an ejection based solely on the foul. Having not seen the game, I wonder if anything preceded the foul.

I think Carmelo Anthony will probably get the longest suspension of any of the players. The little b!tch slap and run that he pulled certainly isn't going to endear him to the casual fan.

I would think the league would make some announcements tomorrow.

The NY papers said yesterday that Isiah Thomas supposedly told Carmelo Anthony <b>before</b> the incident that if Anthony was smart, he'd keep out of the paint for the rest of the game. If that can be substantiated, I'd imagine that Thomas will be looking at a suspension too.

Just learned this morning that Isaiah said; show some class, to Camby and Anthony, not don't go to the hole or you're going to pay. Says this got something to do with Larry Brown, interesting....

The foul definitely warranted an ejection. Take a look again at the clubbing motion of his (Marty Collins) left arm to the neck of JR Smith. Then Nate Robinson escalated the situation with his actions. Carmelo definitely took a sucker-punch, but I feel no pity for the recepient of the punch (Marty Collins).

Welll, I disagree. I don't think he would have been ejected based on the foul alone.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=WXDDwwX1jWs

Thats the video link again. Hurry - you tube deleted the last link due to NBA copyright rules.

Thanks for the link.

I don't know if the original foul was worthy of an ejection or not by NBA standards but if not then the NBA better rethink this.

Isaiah doesn't want to get embarrased at home in the closing minute? Then Isaiah should have gotten a better product to put on the floor.

I agree that Carmello's slap & run makes him look bad. I don't think it will make a difference to the typical fan though.

BTW, I just read this statement that was issued yesterday.

My previous post on this was incorrect. Robbie Robinson did get involved, seperating Jeffries from one of the Nuggets. I hope I wasn't contributing to whatever caused the thread to be deleted.

Some general questions:
1- What should be the role of officials as this kind of melee develops? I thought Bavetta did a good job of quieting the initial mess, and if the Nuggets had gotten Anthony out of there, this might have been a minor incident.

2-Before the hard foul by Collins, Smith lowered his shoulder and pounded into Collins. Incidental contact? Or was this already a defensive foul because Collins didn't have LGP?

3-Isaiah Thomas was clearly talking to Anthony during the previous lull in the game. When you see this type of thing, do you say anything to the coach? Like maybe "Coach your own players!", or is this something to avoid entirely?


Note: When people argue that it's OK to run up the score at certain levels, this incident might be used as an example as to why that may not be such a good idea. Food for thought.

Lost in all the fooferaw was the fact that Denver had 3 subs at the table waiting to go in the game when the flagrant foul on the layup occurred.

I didn't know that.

Anyway, until the NBA includes a provision for a team to throw in the towel during the game all this nonsense about being embarrased is just that - nonsense.

There was a time during the 80's/early 90's when teams like the Lakers spent 3 qtrs going up big then give an exhibition during the 4th qtr that Chick Hearn called "showtime". I don't recall anybody ever taking out Magic Johnson for dunking an alley-oop over him with a 25 point lead in the 4th qtr.

If the Knick players think their manhood is somehow wrapped up in getting an old fashioned azz-whooping then they should take it up with the guy who hired them to play on the team to begin with.

What about if this were a HS game and you were calling it?

Go to ESPN.com and watch the video of Thomas talking to Anthony. His body language certainly doesn't suggest "show some class". They have a close up and it appears that he says something to the effect of "Anthony, don't go to the paint, or it's going to get ugly" then at the end he has a little father knows best smirk on his face........looks like he will watch the next one or more on TV...which in all reality will probably be better for him, they should actually just make him coach then watch the tapes 3 more times, a much bigger punishment the way the Knicks are playing...:eek:

That foul definitely deserved a Flagrant 2. The NBA refs referee plays like that on the basis of W-I-F. It stands for Wind up, Impact, and Follow-through. Not all three have to be present to award a Flagrant 2 and eject a player, but that is how they use it. In this case, the Wind up was def. there, the impact was def. there, maybe not so much of the follow through because he pulled his hands back up, but like I said not all 3 have to be present to eject. It was def. an ejectable offense.

jimgolf,

In response to your 1st question referees are taught to handle it different ways, because different situations calls for different actions. In this situation
Robbie calls the foul and ejects Collins then him and Bavetta sees what is about to take place so they both go get the players and try to restrain them. As you saw Violet was the Trail so she sits back and gets the big picture view which is what she needed to do here. It is ok to have 2 officials on the play, but we don't need 3. We need one to sit back and watch it all. From there, Bavetta has a hold of one of the players and Robbie has one of the others and then Nate Robinson comes in. Robbie loses his player and that player takes Nate to the ground and from there you see Bavetta and Robinson get out of there, which is exactly what you want to do. Now all 3 officials can watch the benches and the players on the court to see who throws the punches and will be ejected. There is nothing else they can do at this point but just watch and start ejecting players. Leave all that garbage to the coaches to clean up.

Each team fined $500,000 (Has that ever happened before?)

Carmello - 15 game sit
Robinson and Smith - 10 game sits.
Plus some additional suspensions

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2701228

stern says the fines are a message
 

Stern says the 500k fines are a message that they are serious about cleaning up the league...yet he lets Thomas continue coaching after a threat. Saying he only used definite knowledge for suspensions. Thomas admits telling Anthony not to go to the paint, but it was meant as a "sportsmanship" lecture :eek:.......I ain't buying that part of it....I like the suspensions for the players though, seem about right to me...

Why suspend Isiah?

I think ownership for the Knicks NEEDS TO fire him. I cannot remember the last time anyone in life was given so many second chances after so many screw ups. And by so many screw ups I mean the same screw ups many times.

fire/suspend
 

Firing is a good idea, the suspension needs to come from the NBA for initiating the problem to begin with....

Here is the thing, none of us were there. You do not know what context things were said or who heard them. I do agree what Thomas said. Why have two of your stars in the game at that point? Now the Nuggets are paying for this a lot more than the Knicks will after this fight. The Knicks are not likely going to make the playoffs. A game or two could keep the Nuggets from having home-court advantage and advancing in the playoffs. I hope it was worth it.

Peace

yep it was a dumb move by all concerned
 

Yeah, they didn't need to be in there, and now they (nuggies) can find out how good they are without the leagues leading scorer...now they will really pursue the Answer LOL...

here's the thing -- these guys are professionals and I dont expect to hear any whining about "boo hoo -- we are getting our asses kicked and the starters are still in." Suck it up and put a better product out there if you are continually getting your butt handed to you -- period this isnt popwarner basektball.

You put a crap product on the floor and you get flushed well thats the bed you made -- get real comfortable. I think the new james bond should have been officiating this game -- throw diplomacy out the window -- and the knicks (except David lee -- I like the guy and his hustle reminds me of Charles Oakley).

First of all this is not Pop Warner, Little League or JH ball. This is the pros. Like it or not there are codes of respect. I cannot think of a single sport where there are not certain codes that players and coaches live by to some extent at the pro level. Even at the college and HS levels there are certain things you do not do or you will piss off the opponent and sometimes the officials. Ever see a team up by 50 keep on the press? I am not saying actions that are advocated are justified or the right thing to do. But we would all be naive to think that doing certain things to embarrass or to show up an opponent is not apart of the thinking of many that play and participate.

Peace

JR -- I am not saying that its the right thing to do -- but why should one team change their strategy on how they want to play their whole game because their opponent sucks. I mean these guys get paid millions a year, these coaches have the job security of the president of Iraq, and most of them whether winning or losing have the same lack of sportsmanship that might have been present 30 or 40 years ago.

Take the lakers game yesterday versus the wizards -- one of the qizards players had a fairly open fast break that smush parker caught up to and fouled the guy and while he fouled him he held on to him to keep him from falling -- what did the wizards player say "instead of thanks for keeping me up" he got in smush's face and started trash talking. The foul was clean and smush made a good play on the ball but the fact remains that the Knicks should take their lumps and the next time they play the nuggets they might want to try to score more than the nuggets. simple plan -- however they will fail.

We're talking about, what, a 20 point lead? It's not like they were winning by 80. Isaiah's comments strike me as premeditation. I would hope that, even lacking definitive information, Stern had a word with Thomas.
Getting embarrassed is one thing, tackling a shooter from behind is not an appropriate response; I don't care who you are. It's not quite like throwing a hit-and-run sucker punch, but still....

You are talking about a 20 point lead with a 1:30 to go in the game. If this was a HS game, I am not sure you would take that same attitude. Also there were some reverse dunking and other show boating that did not go over well.

I never justified anything, I said that there are ways to do things and there are ways not to do things. It is no different than a baseball player taking a slow run around the bases after a homerun or going after a star in a hockey game. There are a lot of codes pros live by and it will start trouble if you violate them. Of course I do not agree with all these codes and the way people get upset about them, but they are still there. And if you want to avoid that perception, then do not violate these codes.

Peace

Great. You're entitled to your opinion but so am I and I still disagree. I do not think Collins would have been ejected if the fight had not occurred. Robinson is signalling two shots in the video. He is not signalling an ejection as you stated in your post. That is very clear.

Mr. Rutledge, I'm sorry but I'm not buying your argument. 20 points is not that big of a lead in the NBA with less than 2 minutes to play. I have seen 2 minutes take up to an hour to play in the NBA. Plus, not too many years ago, Denver was getting beat when they had big leads going into the final minutes. In addition, George Karl does not strike me as the type of man that would run up the score.

There maybe something to the point that George and Larry Brown are old bud's and not liking what the Knicks did to Larry reputation, however, can't prove any of that.

As far as showtime. The NBA is all about showtime, monster dunks, spectacular dunks, etc. Players are getting paid million of dollars and the fans are paying top dollar to see this action. They should come out to compete every night or expect to get whoop pretty good. I still don't think Denver was pouring it on as bad as the Knicks are making it out to be. I think the Laker's was pouring it on when they left Kobie in the game to score 81 points. Now, I can see that type of foul on Kobie that night, damn, too bad Isiah wasn't coaching that team. That's what I call running it up! That's the unwritten code that you speak of.

What we had here, was not a failure to communicate, but some young men overreacting to the situation (btw, foul was a F1, debatable F2) and a coach who took it personally. Isiah is not a good coach to me, imho. Guaranteed, you will see more stuff like this from him this season.

First of all I do not care if you buy it or not. I was not asking for your approval to my position. I was only stating my opinion that was pretty much it.

I do not even believe I used this as an issue. Only George Karl knows why he kept in two starters at that point of the game. I do know this, when that kind of things happen in a HS or college game we make all kinds of judgments about these types of situations. I know some people made a similar conclusion when the Ohio college team was blown out and allowed 200+ points in a game.

This is all nice, but when you do things that may be perceived of "showing up" your opponent, you will get a very negative reaction to these kind of situations. This obviously is what might have sparked the flagrant foul end of this incident.

See what from him? See him tell his players to play hard? Even you are admitting that you feel it was not a flagrent 2 foul, so what did he do? I disagree that this was not a Flagrant 2 foul, but that is why you and I were watching the game and not on the floor.

Peace

A week ago we were talking about a team that was taking a 230 to 78 aZZ woopin and nobody was fouling anyone flagrantly or for that matter realy whining about how bad they got beat - and they were playing up a division.
Yes it was college - not the pros- but it really doesn't mater - If you are on the floor your are there to compete if on that day you get beat by 50 or 10 that is the way it goes live with it - to be so poor a sport as to cry or threaten that you will hurt somebody if they run up the score on you- you deserve to get the score run up on you.

Take your whoopin's like a man, not the over paid babies you turn out to be.
let's not even talk about the suit about the technical fouls because they can't demonstrutively complain about calls anymore. :cool:

Well just to let you have a more in depth watching of the fight I got another youtube playing of the fight with commentary and also you can hear the cadence of the whistles. There is no doubt in my mind he was getting ejected. Anytime you wind up and swing that hard and hit a player in the head, especially the head that is a flagrant 2. I saw Robbie doing no such thing as signaling 2 shots. but I will just let you listen to this for yourself.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=LoFFjeVAV...elated&search=

P.S. listen to how loud the shot from Carmelo to Mardy Collins is.

This all sounds wonderful, but I have read hear many times about how behavior is perceived as unsportsmanlike when the winning team does things to purposely humiliate the opponent. Whether it is pressing all game long in a big time blowout, to even the way they celebrate a great play. I hope that you are the first person to tell a younger official this when they come here and ask "Can I T up a coach for......." some type of behavior that mirrored the events proceeding the fight in this game. Since the NBA players are role models, do not complain when the very same feelings take place at the local JH game.

Peace

My comments are based solely on what I have heard here and seen in the video. I have no Knowledge of anything else that transpired.
Having said that even if there were fancy dunks or pressing the whole game there is nothing illegal about those actions if done within the confines of the rules and they are not considered unsporting acts.
If they commit an unsporting act as defined by the rules -taunting etc. during a blowout victory they should be punished for it - just as the player should be punnished for the hard or flagrant foul - however you see it.
This is a case where you let the officials do their job take your whoopin like a man and come back and play better another day having learned a lesson.

I do respect you comments JR and I expect to be held to mine in the future.

Are we getting a little defensive here? I agree, that is it...
Of course you didn't, I did!
Agree with this statement, but not in case. Score was not indicative that they where showing off. I think this may be where we disagree the most. The NBA is all about entertainment, and showtime is what the fans come and pay a very hefty, hefty, hefty (up to $600 per seat) price to see. I want to see Carmelo get off, he is a superstar and I want to see him in the game all the way to the end. The same if it was Lebron James or Michael Jordan. The Knicks got no business getting all upset ruining everybody good time because they can't take a little butt whoop-in. Let's face it man. They acted like little kids. Isiah acted like a little spoil child, and that attitude spread around his team and next thing you know, we got an all out brawl. Next thing you know, we got retaliations like this happening all over the country. Isiah is got to be smarter than this. I'm sorry, he's got to be smarter than this! Let's be clear, Isiah started this. If we can't agree here, than we are done talking. Isiah got to keep his personal feeling in check until after the game. He's not a player anymore. I don't want to see him lose his job as a coach but I think more about the message he just sent out around the country. We don't need this sh!t coming from his position. If he's going to act like a sore loser everytime he gets a little beat up, then he doesn't need to be in that position. The Knicks deserve better....

Defensive? Who are you to me? The point is I did not ask you to buy anything. If you do not agree with my position then oh well. ;)

You are right, it is a business. And in any business if you treat people that you have to work with or deal with in that business and you treat them in what is perceived as unprofessional, you will likely suffer some consequences as a result. Now the NBA most of this is dealt with on the court and in most people's view, but in other aspects of life it happens behind close doors. We talk about it hear all the time when people complain they live in a political association or they did not get a shot based on something they are not aware of. It is not about entertainment when you are a participant of an industry. You will have to face these same people again; you do not want to burn bridges if you do not have to.

I am not sure what Isiah had to do with the fight no more than George Karl did. That fight was based on the reaction of all the parties directly involved. If you do not like Isiah that is your right, but it has nothing to do with the fight that took place. Remember Isiah is a Hall of Fame player talking to a potential Hall of Fame player. I think he is in a much better position to tell a young player what to do despite what team he was on. He has much more of a right to do so than Karl if you ask me.
Also I think as usual we over-react to these situations and make them into bigger issues. If you were really old school you would remember at another time when fighting in the NBA was a regular occurrence. Now it barely happens and the only incident we can talk about was over a year old. I can remember specifically when Dr. J and Larry Bird, two of the biggest stars at the time got into fisticuffs in the 80s. I remember big time fights that took place with some of the biggest stars of the day. I do not know if you even have a chance to listen to Norm Van Lear formally of the Chicago Bulls talk and was in the same backcourt with Jerry Sloan (current coach of the Utah Jazz) and Norm advocates putting someone into a wall almost every other comment when he gives analysis of Bulls and NBA games. I have been listening and watching Van Lear for years as he was on TV most of the Jordan year's runs for championships and he was making comments all the time about being tough and talks about what they would do to players of today's games.

Peace

C'mon Jeff, this is silly. On the floor Thomas has no business telling an opponent what to do. You said it yourself, it's a business and these people are competing for tons of money. The young ones do need to get help & advice from the vets. There are times when I give friendly advice to young people that work for other companies that are just coming up in my business. But I would never, ever consider telling a competitor what to do when I have a stake in the outcome. Never. Depending on the situation to do so would fall somewhere between just plain f'ing the kid and doing something illegal. IMO Isaiah f'ed Carmello. He planted a seed "hey, kid, stay away from the basket if you know what's good for you" and that's what he over-reacted to. If Thomas would have just sat down and taken his beating like a man none of this would have happened. But he couldn't, because he's under enourmous pressure and his job is on the line. So he dragged in 10 other people. This wasn't about teaching the young ones how to act. It was about Isaiah Thomas saving his own pathetic @ss.

Think about this: what if the Knicks were down by 2 when Isaiah told Carmello he would be smart to stay away from the basket?

People get treated unprofessionally everynight in the NBA, they wolf on each other all night, every night. That is the nature of the business and these athletes get paid a lot of money to deal with just that. And to boot, they all get there moments in the spotlight too! I totally disagree with your position here. Got an idea. These athletes make enough money to go hire a psychiatrist to help them deal with their frustrations.

No doubt here, I agree totally. But Isiah is not acting in the roll of a player anymore. He is acting now as a coach. No doubt he has earned the right, but also, what comes with that right is an even greater responsibility. I'm sure you can acknowledge that. Case in point: when I coached, and yes I coached men. The opposition had a superstar come in from out of town that we had no answer for. He was lighting us up. Late in the 2nd half I called a TO and told my team this guy is killing us, we got to stop him, if not we're going to lose this game. My big guy who went about 6'6 -255lbs plus. When said superstar came down the lane for another layup, my big guy cold-cocked him! Fist right to the body, put him on his back. I immediately called another TO to clarified what I meant. My point is, it was so easy for me as a coach to send the wrong message to my players. They picked this up without me even saying it! You have to be very careful with how you phrase things, your disposition, everything, when you are a leader of young over energized men. Along with great power comes an even greater responsibility. I want to win but not that way.

Of course I remember the old days of the NBA when Darrel Dr.Dunk Dawkins squared off with Marcus Lucas center court. I'd like to think that we have progressed beyond those days of handling our issues in a public forum like that. Don't you think there is enough violence in the black community now. We don't need our bestowed upon NBA roll models relating to this type of behavior on the TV to handle their differences. Isiah was wrong to provoke such a thing and the sad thing is, I don't even think he gets it. I know you don't....

Peace to you.

Robinson is not signalling two shots, he's signalling flagarant two.

First of all let us not compare completely the NBA with yours and my business or professional life. Also what you would do is not what I would do are not the same thing. I talk to a lot of people that work in other companies or in other industries and if I feel I want to share some information in conversation that might help someone, I will share that information. That is the kind of person I am. I am not talking things specific to my business, but help someone with making a decision (leaving a company or finding a new job as an example) or anything I might know about or have experienced that can help someone. People have done that for me and I feel life is a gift and I like to give back because there were people who gave back to me when they did not have to. Now that is me, you can do what you want to.

If that is what happen, why has no players said that? Melo does not owe Isiah anything as far as I know. I am sure MJ tells Melo things we have no idea about and likely will have a conversation with Melo or already has. You or I will never know for sure.

Coaches and players interact often in the NBA or many other leagues. So what? You are so focused on what he said. If the NBA felt he did something, he would have been suspended or fined at the very least. David Stern has suspended other coaches for situations similar. I am sure players on the Nuggets were asked by the league about the situation and the league would have taken action. Remember, the NBA did fine both teams $500,000. I am sure there were things talked about on both sides that were addressed.

Peace

Why are you so focused on the money they make? Are you jealous? Are you mad that you did not put in the time to make that kind of money? I am not sure what the money they make has much to do with this at all. This is a league where there are things that go on in the league just like the NFL, NASCAR, the NHL or Major League Baseball. Just listen to veterans talk about rookies and what they think when conflict happens in any of these sports. There are things expected in all professional sports leagues that you would not understand until you are there. I know there are things expected at the NCAA level that are not expected at the HS level and if those "professional" expectations are violated, it can cause serious conflict. And the main people making the money are the coaches (at least legally).

You have the right to your opinion but so do I. Unless you coached, played or was a front office person in the NBA, I think knowing what responsibility someone has at least for me falls on deaf ears. You can give me all the war-stories of what you did when you coached, it still is not going to change my opinion and frankly I am not trying to change your opinion either.

First of all I do not know what this has to do with the Black community. Several weeks ago there was a fight at a basketball game not even close to what happen in Detroit about 2 years ago, but it took place oversees. There were flares thrown by fans and total chaos and violence all over the place. The last time I checked, I did not see any Black people in the stands during this that display of violence. I think there is too much violence in all societies and around the world. And as someone that grew up in a Black Family, as much as I admired many athletes, they were not my role models. Of course there was a part of me that wanted to be like a Willie Stargell or a Hank Aaron or a Jackie Robinson, it was not because of what they only did on a field. I admired those people because of what the way they carried themselves but my biggest role models were people I saw every day. I was a kid when Charles Barkley made his "role model" commercial with NIKE and I can tell you I was in 100% agreement with his position.

Peace

The fact remains these guys get paid tons of money because they're role models. There is nothing instrically valuable in being able to put a 9 inch ball through an 18 inch ring. However, when you add the fact that these skills are admired by millions, and the talents enjoyed by millions, the abilities become valuable; 8 figures' worth.

No, I'm not jealous (well, maybe a little.) However, with the money comes a responsibility. Most of those guys do what they can to meet those responsibilities; but the public image they build helps increase their value to their team. So, it's a nice little upward spiral for them.

That is a sad commentary.
 

If that is all it takes to make them role models, then this is why this society as a whole has a lot of problems. We have really set the bar very low if athletes are role models instead of parents, teachers and people kids come in contact with every single day.

Peace

How about that 201-78 NCAA-M game recently? :D

It's not an either/or scenario, Jeff. The problem is too often these guys are role models instead of parents, teachers, etc. It's not right, and it's not ideal. H3ll, I think it's a sure sign of major societal problems. While it may or may not be the way things should be. It's the way they are. Barkley may bemoan the fact all he wants; it's his right. But his money came from people who looked up to him at one level or another.
I like Barkley, I always have; but I think he was wrong on this.
Last week I had two wide open layups cancelled by shoves from behind. I ruled the first an intentional; and my partner ruled the second one flagrant. Obviously this happened before the brawl in New York; but how much of it is some sort of trickle down effect from kids who see the NBA players as people to emulate?

Perspective is a good thing.
 

I think the people who tend to overplay the issue of athletes as role models are the adults. Just like the media plays up the issues of video games and assumes that violent video games are played by 10 year olds rather than what the average gamer really is, 33 years old.

My point is there have always been fights at sporting events. There are fights when athletes on any level get together and emotions are high. There were fights in the 70s, 80s and 90s in the NBA and involving some of the best players in the game. Dr. J, Larry Bird, Isiah Thomas, Magic Johnson, Charles Barkley, Michael Jordan, Reggie Miller and Moses Malone just to name a few all had notable fights when I was growing up and I never wanted to do that in a game. There are fights every season with baseball teams that throw at each other and all the benches clear. There were fights with fans in Chicago at both Wrigley and Comisky Park (at the time) in the past 5 years (Dodgers at Wrigley and fans coming out of the stands at Comisky). Every other game there is a fight in the NHL. I remember a time when the benches were allowed to clear. Then the NHL cracked down and allowed fighting but ejected players for leaving the bench. Hockey is the only sport that allows players to fight and still stay in the game. This year in NASCAR not only did drivers go at it by throwing helmets at cars and pushing matches after trading paint, but girlfriends got into it off the track as well. There were fights across the world in Soccer situations; even the World Cup had a head butt from a star player and was ejected in the Final game. Let us not mention all the fights in Europe during club league games. There was even an incident last year where flares were thrown on the field and hit a player and FIFA did not allow fans of this team to go to these stadiums. The stadiums were completely empty during sanctioned FIFA games. Did the kids not see these events?

My point is if you do not know the history, you tend to repeat it. There are a lot of ugly moments in sports and this was just one of many. I know in my state there were a few incidents where fans got into fights and games were cancelled long before the Artest situation ever took place. These incidents are just an example of how violent our society is and sports just reflect this. We are in a war for God's sake. It is not like these are the only bad things we see on TV. We just live in a 24 hour news cycle and SportsCenter comes on 20 times a night. When Dr. J and Larry Bird got into fisticuffs, SportsCenter only came on at 10:00pm and if you missed it, you likely did not see the highlights until the next day. If you did not watch those highlights, you did not see them again. There was no internet or UTube.com or On Demand source to watch anything that took place in the world. College students at one time were dying on college campus because of riots. How many riots have you seen in today’s society? You have to put some things in perspective. I am not saying kids never are influenced by anything that takes place, but they have a lot more bad examples than what happen in the NBA this weekend.

Peace

No doubt Jeff, but where do we draw the line. I agree that there is problems in our society but fighting is not the answer. You talk like this is an accepted practice. I will agree that it is a sad reality of life but i refuse to accept it. I acknowledge it but i don't accept it. Your hockey example is outstanding. This is why i like debating with you. I don't know what the hell is wrong with the people that run hockey, maybe that's why the sport is not that popular or it's popularity and financial stability has not kept up with the other major sports in the US. Unfortunately, here, we are talking about basketball, and just because one group does it, doesn't make it right, okay, or accepted for the other to do it.

I think I can speak for a lot of people here. We want our basketball to be better than those other sports. You stated people that don't know history or prone to repeat it. What about us that do know history, or we not obligated at some point to not see a person go down that path again because we know what the results will be. Isiah, he's an idiot, just like George Bush, just like Karl said. He did the same thing to Denver that Denver did to him in NY, but did Denver complain, did they start delivering hard fouls, or say to the Knick players you better not shoot a layup.

Here's the problem I have with Isiah. There are young men out here that would go thru a wall for Zeak. If you are going to start a war between young men, let's make sure it's something worth fighting over, much the same that if the president is going to send our bravest citizens to war, let's make sure we put them in a position to win the war. In Zeak's case, 20 points, bb game, come on!!!! 50 points like what happened to me in an AAU game that I was coaching, okay. I don't care if Zeak's upset, don't work in the kitchen if you can't stand the heat. I'm with Karl on this on. I'm teaching my guys how to close out games. Got nothing to do with NY or Isiah.

It is very clear that you do not know how to read what is being discussed. I am also saying this based on other coversations I have read from you on this site (and others BTW). Can you show anywhere I said it was acceptable to fight? I am not running from any of my comments, but where did I say that?

I think you are obsessed with Isiah. These are professionals that have proven in the past they do not listen to Isiah or anyone else and all of a sudden what Isiah says goes? Dude it was a fight in an NBA game, it was not the Zeburta film (sp?).

Peace

You didn't say it was acceptable but the position you took supported the outcome, in other words, the end justified the means. You felt that the opposition was being disrespectful to the Knicks, so therefore, this fight was justified. Because you bought in all the other sports and there fights into this debate, you are saying that it is a normal part of our society, get use to it, sh!t happens....
That's BS sir. Last year, the Knicks where destroyed just about every night. There was never any brawl like what happened here. What is the differance? We got Zeak coaching instead of Larry Brown. We got Zeak (the coach) telling a player not to go to the hole if he knows what's good for him. Remember when I told you that players can pick up what a coach is thinking without the coach even saying anything. Well, if Zeak is speaking to another player on the opposition team like this! I rest my case. I am not obsessed with Zeak, I am sick of his BS. Leave the BS off the NBA court.

Along with great power comes an even greater responsibility (Peter Parker).

You obviously have a problem understanding points of view on this website. I brought up other sports to show that I do not see people here making these major issues when similar incidents take place in other sport. We do discuss other sports on the basketball board and there are members who post on the other sports specific boards. If you actually can understand what is said, you would have understood that. Remember, you brought up the "Black community" in this discussion trying to suggest that somehow this was a reflection of or a result of that because of a fight in the NBA.

Wait a minute. Whose player threw a punch? Whose player threw a punch and ran away? Were the Nuggets in any brawls last year? Did the Nuggets have the same coach?

As I said you have an obsession with Isiah and that is your right to feel that way. But please stop trying to talk about Isiah to me because personally I do not care.

Peace

I see you have made this statement several times that I do not understand what is being discussed. I will tell you this. I am talking speifically about the incident that occurred in NY. I do not care about some other topic that took place at some other point in time. We can not address all the issues that are wrong with sports in this one discussion. However, like I was telling my son who has multiple problems with his vechicle. We have to fix these problems one step at a time. We can't skip and go to problem B before correcting problem A. I'm staying focus on the one problem, you want to make this a general problem, where all kind of other intangibles come into the mix. Go right ahead, I can't stop you. This is one of the very reasons why we can't move forward in society because before we get the one problem solved, we are bringing other problems into the arguement.

Is the black community point what got you obsessed here? Is that what you are trying to defend without directly talking about it? Yes, I did bring it up because I stand for a better community, a better way of life for our African American brothers. I will admit I viewed this brawl thru bias eyes. My arguement is this, we got 10 brothers playing a game they love, at Madison Square Garden of all places, getting paid, getting all the limelight, why the hell are they fighting one another when the game is obviously over? In this case, it was pretty sh!t. They turned a professional game of bb into a back yard street game. This is not what we want, this is not hockey, and I blame that on Isiah.

To me this is just another example of how the NBA keeps moving closer to professional wrestling. It won't be long and they'll be knocking out officials with a chair too keep from being disqualified while beating the other team over the head with their sneakers. :D The NBA, it's FAAAAANNNTASTIC! And to me, borderline unwatchable.

The issue in NY was just that an incident. You have talked about how it means in the bigger picture. You have talked about how kids are going to behave as a result of this fight. Considering what I have seen at games in my state and surrounding areas, this incident was tame. The very same night of this NBA brawl there was a fight outside the school where I officiated a game while the game was going on or when the fight broke out. No kids saw the tape of the NY-Denver game at that point. BTW, the game involved the two sons of Michael Jordan (they were not involved but it is ironic that we are talking about the NBA). I can also think of 3 incidents where games were cancelled and even one team was suspended from participating in any basketball event for a year as a result of an incident during after a playoff game. So there is violence all over the place and this NBA game was not the first and it will not be the last. I heard about the Knick-Nuggets brawl on the way home in my car as police were whipping by me to break up a fight outside of a Catholic school. Now was this fight a reflection of the Catholic religion?

I was trying to figure out why you even made this statement at all? What did some NBA game have to do anything in the Black community? Does a fight in the NHL reflect on people from other countries or Canada? Do NASCAR fights and comments reflect on the southern community? Does a MLB fight reflect on the Latin/Hispanic and rich suburban kids?

I guess rich folks that go to Cubs games and got into a fight with the Dodger players at Wrigley field is a direct reflection on the people in Wrigleyville (which btw is not an African-American Community by any means) and all Cubs fans that attend games. Considering that there are not many African-Americans that go to baseball games at all and definitely not to Cubs games, I guess I should make some assumptions about the people I saw in that melee? And these were not rich athletes throwing things at the L.A. Dodgers. These were every day regular people who happened to be at a baseball game during the summer.

I am tired of when Black people do something it is about our community and not about the individual. These players are individuals and if they got into a fight there are many examples of the same behavior around the sporting world. If you cannot tell your son that, then maybe he needs another role model in his life to teach him how to be a man. ;)

Peace

That's ludicrous. How many brawls were in the NBA in the last 5 years? How many in other professional sports?

If the NBA is getting closer to professional wrestling, than what can you say about the NFL, or National Felons League? The Yankees and Red Sox alone probably have more brawls than the NBA.

Not sure where you're going with this one. I hate to even ask. You are boucing off the boards like a ping-pong ball. Let me bring it home for you. Unfortunately, in most black communities around America, there is "more" violence. Keyword here is more. Crime is higher in black American communities. True, violence is in all communities, and in all sports, and it will never ever rid itself from sports because of the nature of the game. But for basketball, one can only hope!

Keep Hope Alive!

There is? Wow, I guess the shooting that took place a couple weeks ago outside of a very affluent community around here was a Black community. Funny, every time I have worked games with the two schools in those districts, I did not see a single Black player in them. Better yet, there are many Black communities around here that nothing happens.

Do you have any stats that back this up? I live in the surrounding Chicago area and I hear of a lot of shootings and incidents and those communities are not in "Black" communities. As a matter of fact I worked a basketball game with a cop that is from the area where I live and told me that they do not make public a lot of crime because they do not want the publicity that their community has problems. Kind of like how college campus all over the country not reporting the number of rapes and robberies so no prospective students do not realize the safety issues at play. I grew up in a rural town and there were a lot of crime and this was by far a "Black community."

Peace

It's not so much about the brawls, it's about the fact that entertainment seems to be more important than winning and losing. I can't watch the NFL either. The only thing that keeps me into baseball is I like hearing the crack of a bat and not a ping.

I'm with Junker. For the most part, I just don't like the way the game is played in the NBA. That's not good or bad, it's just my personal preference. I much prefer the college game; and even then I tend to prefer small college ball.
I do watch the NFL, but get equally disgusted when there's a fight between players. It shows an immature lack of self control and discipline.

When are there really fights in football? The only fights I can think of that took place in the NFL were before the game and the rules were changed in mid-season to eliminate those situations. The NFL players have pads on and this is almost never a problem. Of course some pushing and shoving from time to time, but that happens at all levels as well.

Peace

I'm talking specifically about the Raiders/Seahawks incident on MNF a month or so ago, and the stomping incident this year. You're right, for the most part, fights in the NFL amount to quick cheap shots that don't continue. Probably because they're wearing pads.

That said, the University of Miami put everyone (including the Pistons, Pacers, Knicks, and Nuggets) to shame this fall. They set the bar pretty high for brawling. :(

I see what you are saying. But this scuffle (Raiders/Seahawks) was just between two players and it was over. Players did not come off the bench and even players on the field did not get involved. What does happen sometimes is an opponent goes into a bench area and things to get heated, but usually everyone gets the participants separated and it is over very quickly.

Actually I think the Clemson-South Carolina fight was pretty bad and likely worse than the Miami-FIU fight. Funny thing is the Clemson-South Carolina happen a few days after the Artest incident.

Peace

You're right; there's a lot of jawing in football, and it usually leads to nothing. I wonder if part of the reason is that there's a legal way to take your frustrations out on someone.

I think people focus on the basketball stuff for a couple of reasons. First of all, because it's so rare. A fight in hockey isn't news because it's a daily thing, and they have procedures in place to both allow for it and to contain it. A scuffle in football isn't news because no one usually gets hurt (pads). When someone does get hurt (the horse collar on Larry Johnson or the lineman getting stomped with cleats), its an anomoly and it gets a lot of attention.
I think another reason is that when a fight happens in basketball, there is a higher likelihood that the players involved are going to be star players. I knew the names of the players involved in the Raiders/Seahawks scuffle for about two days after that fight. Right now, I couldn't pick the two names out of a list of three people.
Anyone who follows basketball knows who Anthony is; they knew who Artest, Wallace, and company were before the throw down in the Palace. It's different when it's people you know. One guy pointed out that Anthony pulling this would be like Peyton Manning or Ladanian Tomlinson throwing a sucker punch and running off.

Seahawks: Matt Hasselbeck
Shaun Alexander
Jeremy Stevens

Raiders: Tyler Brayton
Randy Moss
Art Shell