Up and Under Move

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

4-23-3c
After the initial legal guarding position is obtained:
The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.

The rule does not exclude an airborne defender. If he moves, leaps, jumps, runs toward the offensive player and creates illegal contact, he has fouled. Why do you think defenders are coached to never leave their feet?

Still disagree. The guard jumping at the shooter would not have initiated illegal contact at any time before landing if the shooter hadn't moved under the defender after he became airborne.

The way that I read it, I'd call this one on the shooter.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Still disagree. The guard jumping at the shooter would not have initiated illegal contact if the shooter hadn't moved under the defender after he became airborne.

The way that I read it, I'd call this one on the shooter.

You cited 4-37-3, which entails that a spot on the court goes to whoever gets there first (legally). In the OP, the guard is not vertical, so why is he entitled to come down where the shooter wants to go?

If the guard is not entitled to land there, then why do you have a foul on the shooter?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by mbyron

You cited 4-37-3, which entails that a spot on the court goes to whoever gets there first (legally). In the OP, the guard is not vertical, so why is he entitled to come down where the shooter wants to go?

If the guard is not entitled to land there, then why do you have a foul on the shooter?

Because the shooter hasn't started to go anywhere when the defender jumped. If the shooter hadn't have moved in and under the defender after the defender was in the air, there would have been no contact.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Because the shooter hasn't started to go anywhere when the defender jumped. If the shooter hadn't have moved in and under the defender after the defender was in the air, there would have been no contact.

Your answer doesn't address your own rule citation: if the guard is not the first to occupy a spot on the floor legally, then he is not entitled to the spot, whether he jumps, walks, or runs there. When the guard lands on the shooter, the guard is not the first to the spot; since he was not vertical, he is not there legally.

How is this case different from a garden-variety block? Why does the jump make a difference? Are you smuggling in verticality to imply that the guard is entitled to come down on the spot?

Am I missing something?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Your answer doesn't address your own rule citation: if the guard is not the first to occupy a spot on the floor legally, then he is not entitled to the spot, whether he jumps, walks, or runs there. When the guard lands on the shooter, the guard is not the first to the spot; since he was not vertical, he is not there legally.

How is this case different from a garden-variety block? Why does the jump make a difference? Are you smuggling in verticality to imply that the guard is entitled to come down on the spot?

Am I missing something?

If no one is in front of you when you jump, aren't you entitled to land? You're forgetting that the shooter wasn't vertical either. The shooter moved under the airborne defender after the defender had already jumped.

[Carl Cramer]

Well, it's settled then. Only one applicable rule citation:

4-23-3c
After the initial legal guarding position is obtained:
The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.

Additionally,
Which player first committed to leaving his vertical space? Defender
Which player made a stupid play? Defender
Which player made the best basketabll play? Shooter

Reward the shooter.

If this OP is a foul on the shooter....if airborne shooter and airborne defenders share equally the right to a landing spot (...no rule citation here was supplied here, by the way), then please don't let the defenders of this world know. Because we'll have guarding players jumping up and out of vertical in front of driving shooters like a flea circus. Yikes!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Carl Cramer

Well, it's settled then. Only one applicable rule citation:

4-23-3c
After the initial legal guarding position is obtained:
The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.

Additionally,
Which player first committed to leaving his vertical space? Defender
Which player made a stupid play? Defender
Which player made the best basketabll play? Shooter

Reward the shooter.

If this OP is a foul on the shooter....if airborne shooter and airborne defenders share equally the right to a landing spot (...no rule citation here was supplied here, by the way), then please don't let the defenders of this world know. Because we'll have guarding players jumping up and out of vertical in front of driving shooters like a flea circus. Yikes!

So........if a dribbler elbows a defender running beside him, the foul has to be on the defender because he doesn't have LGP?

And what if the shooter leaves his feet first? Is it still a foul on the shooter if the defender moves under him?

Great logic.