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-   -   Double Personal (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/30249-double-personal.html)

Nevadaref Mon Dec 18, 2006 07:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lotto
I'm sorry that my post made you sad.

I also never said that the other official's call is ignored if the foul is not in his area.

What I was citing is not a rule (but of course you know that), but is rather the mechanics that we use here in NY girl's HS basketball. The same mechanics are used at the college level (NCAA women's), except when a play originates in one official's primary and moves towards the basket. In that case, the official in whose primary the play starts takes the play all the way to the basket and will generally take the foul.

Please note the use of the word generally in this post and in the previous post. If you and I have a double whistle and the foul is in your primary, I will generally let you take the foul. However, if I see something that I think you may have missed, I'll come and tell you and then let you make the final call. And if we have a double whistle with a fist and a palm, or with two preliminary signals that are different, then we'll get together and decide what we have (which might, in fact, be a double foul), at which point you will take whatever call to the table.

I hope you're less sad now.
Using or recommending NCAAW mechanics for HS games makes me sad. :(

But this being my 4,000th post makes me happy! :)

Lotto Mon Dec 18, 2006 09:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Using or recommending NCAAW mechanics for HS games makes me sad. :(
As I said above, these are the state-approved mechanics for HS girls basketball in NY. They happen to be similar in this case to NCAAW mechanics. (NY uses NCAAW rules for girls HS ball; the mechanics are also patterned to some extent after NCAAW mechanics.)

So I use HS mechanics for my HS games. How 'bout that?

Adam Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:24am
To me, it seems more likely for a blarge to be a legitimate double foul than for two knuckleheads jockeying down in the post.

Nevadaref Tue Dec 19, 2006 02:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lotto
As I said above, these are the state-approved mechanics for HS girls basketball in NY. They happen to be similar in this case to NCAAW mechanics. (NY uses NCAAW rules for girls HS ball; the mechanics are also patterned to some extent after NCAAW mechanics.)

So I use HS mechanics for my HS games. How 'bout that?
You have to do what is done in your area. I think that it is unfortunate that you have to use NCAA rules for your HS girls games, but that's the way it is. (Of course, I would like to see the NCAA and NFHS rules merged and become the same for both levels of play. However, that is just a fantasy.)

Now I am confused about exactly what you folks do back there. Could you provide some more detail?
1. Do you use straight NCAAW rules for these games or a hybrid of those and NFHS?
2. Same question for your mechanics. Although you have indicated that these are not done by the NCAAW book.

Here's why I ask:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lotto
And if we have a double whistle with a fist and a palm, or with two preliminary signals that are different, then we'll get together and decide what we have (which might, in fact, be a double foul), at which point you will take whatever call to the table.
Under NFHS this would be a double foul. The two officials are not permitted to come together and decide upon only one call.
Under NCAAW, the two officials are to get together and decide upon a single call. It is my understanding that a double foul is not permissible in this case.

So which way do you do it in NY?

Scrapper1 Tue Dec 19, 2006 07:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
To me, it seems more likely for a blarge to be a legitimate double foul than for two knuckleheads jockeying down in the post.
I know this doesn't really have anything to do with the thread, but I disagree with this. In my mind, a crash simply CAN'T be both a block and a charge. Either the defender was legal or not. Obviously the two refs can see it differently and make different calls, but one of them is wrong.

It's much more likely that two boneheads just whack each other at the same time. Was there one that came first? Probably. But there will be the occasion where they foul at the same time.

mbyron Tue Dec 19, 2006 07:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1
I know this doesn't really have anything to do with the thread, but I disagree with this. In my mind, a crash simply CAN'T be both a block and a charge. Either the defender was legal or not. Obviously the two refs can see it differently and make different calls, but one of them is wrong.

It's much more likely that two boneheads just whack each other at the same time. Was there one that came first? Probably. But there will be the occasion where they foul at the same time.
I can imagine a blarge situation that's a double foul, but it sure isn't the run of the mill blarge. The one I imagine looks like two rams butting heads...

I agree that for run of the mill blarges, if you have 2 calls one of them is likely wrong.

Jurassic Referee Tue Dec 19, 2006 08:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1
In my mind, a crash simply CAN'T be both a block and a charge.
But a foul can be a force-out?

You're wierd.

Btw, I think that the NCAA Mens and NFHS rulesmakers probably agree with you. It really does have to be one or t'other in real life, but they had to come up with something to use when 2 officials had different calls on the same play and neither wanted to back down. You know....being <i>macho</i> and all that. Of course, the NCAA Wimmen didn't think that would be a problem at all......so they put in a different rule:
<i>"You, make the call, Mildred."
"No, no. <b>You</b> make the call, Agnes. I insist!"</i>:D

Scrapper1 Tue Dec 19, 2006 08:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
But a foul can be a force-out?
No, no, no, no. I was just saying what the ref DID, not whether it was correct. He called a force-out, when he should've called a foul.

Quote:
You're wierd.
I'm rubber, you're glue. . .

Quote:
Btw, I think that the NCAA Mens and NFHS rulesmakers probably agree with you. It really does have to be one or t'other in real life,
If they did, they'd go to the women's rule. Give up the call to the person who has primary responsibility for it.

Jurassic Referee Tue Dec 19, 2006 08:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I'm rubber, you're glue. . .
The feeling is mucilage.

mbyron Tue Dec 19, 2006 09:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
You're wierd.
Remember: 'weird' is weird.

Don't blame me: blame the Saxons.

Jurassic Referee Tue Dec 19, 2006 09:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron
Remember: 'weird' is weird.

Don't blame me: blame the Saxons.
There's a liitle background story behind the "wierd" spelling.

Scrapper, who is just a great Yankees fan, once posted that all BoSox fans are "wierd". I just like to remind him of that.

mick Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
There's a liitle background story behind the "wierd" spelling.

Scrapper, who is just a great Yankees fan, once posted that all BoSox fans are "wierd". I just like to remind him of that.
"There is a weird power in a spoken word. ...And a word carries far - very far- deals destruction through time as the bullets go flying through space." - Joseph Conrad

Lotto Tue Dec 19, 2006 11:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
You have to do what is done in your area. I think that it is unfortunate that you have to use NCAA rules for your HS girls games, but that's the way it is. (Of course, I would like to see the NCAA and NFHS rules merged and become the same for both levels of play. However, that is just a fantasy.)

Now I am confused about exactly what you folks do back there. Could you provide some more detail?
1. Do you use straight NCAAW rules for these games or a hybrid of those and NFHS?
2. Same question for your mechanics. Although you have indicated that these are not done by the NCAAW book.

Here's why I ask:

Under NFHS this would be a double foul. The two officials are not permitted to come together and decide upon only one call.
Under NCAAW, the two officials are to get together and decide upon a single call. It is my understanding that a double foul is not permissible in this case.

So which way do you do it in NY?
We use NCAAW rules with a few small modifications. The mechanics are given to us by the state.

The details can be found here: http://www.nysgboa.com/

If your fantasy is to have HS and college rules be the same, why is it unfortunate that that's almost exactly what we do here in NY on the girls side?

mbyron Tue Dec 19, 2006 01:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mick
"There is a weird power in a spoken word. ...And a word carries far - very far- deals destruction through time as the bullets go flying through space." - Joseph Conrad
Gotta love Conrad. And remember: English was the THIRD language of this master stylist.

Weird. ;)

Junker Tue Dec 19, 2006 01:23pm
Getting away from the language posts....I've never had a blarge, but I do use the double foul on occasion to clean up post play early. Of course we try to get the first foul, but once in a while we let things go a little to long and it gets too physical down there. In the OP, I would have taken the call from the primary. Good communication is the key. On a double whistle, I usually will tap myself on the chest if it's in my primary, or point to my partner if they should take it. Occasionally I'll get together with my partners to talk it out, but in most cases I think this can be handled with nonverbal communication.


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