Double Personal
 

Unable to determine which foul came first, me and my partner decided to just call a double foul. We were wondering if we should just call a jump ball or what? Can you all help me?

Can you give a few more details? Who fouled whom? What kind of fouls were you calling? Did you and your partner each have one foul, or did one of you have both? :confused:

The possession after a double personal foul is given to the team that had the ball and at the location of the ball, before the fouls occurred. That is called the point of interuption.

I'm seeing two possibilities:

- you each observed a matchup where two opponents were gettin' at each other, or
- you each had a foul (each probably in your primary) and you got together to see which happened first, and thereby negating the 2nd unless warranted by rule

I think it was the 2nd possibility. I have no problems from a game mgmt POV to ding them both, if you can't determine which happened first.

Then use the POI. Back to the team that had the ball, or APA if there was no team control.

Just to clarify, this would be a simultaneous foul.

And just to further clarify, in the case of either a double or a simultaneous foul, the game continues from the POI.

If I may add, we called fouls on the same play but he called it on the team a and I called it on team b...He was watching my zone, but we talked about it and decided to give double personals

If you have a double whistle on a play in your primary, you should generally take the foul.

Would shot clock reset on a double foul? I got two posts knocking against on each other for position. I tell them to take it easy,... one move and BANG they each lean into one another with their shoulders like a couple of football blockers. I got em both.

Do you have a rule cite that says the other offiical's call is ignored if the foul is not in his area? :(


budjones05, if you both had whistles on the same play and you had fopuls on opponents, then it is a double foul. POI. Play ball.

No, play resumes at POI.

That's called cooperation between partners, working as a team, trusting your partner, whatever. Double whistles can happen, but only one official goes to report. At least, this is what we are taught here. In a charge/block situation, it is important that the official calling the charge does not "punch" immediately, when realizing that the other official has a foul on the defense. Then only the official with the primary responsibility punches, if necessary, and goes to report the foul. It takes a fraction of a second, if the officials have made a good pregame, to silently agree on who has the primary responsibility.

In some rare situations, it could be necessary that the "non-primary" official goes to confer with the "primary" official; for example, when calling a foul which happened before the contact called by the partner. Judging differently one and the same contact is "not a good thing", IMO.

Ciao

Where is here?

Well, the nick should have told you. ;)

Italy, Fiba rules. Which of course allow that two officials call different things on the same contact; but this doesn't mean that the two officials have done a good job.:)

Ciao

I'm sorry that my post made you sad.

I also never said that the other official's call is ignored if the foul is not in his area.

What I was citing is not a rule (but of course you know that), but is rather the mechanics that we use here in NY girl's HS basketball. The same mechanics are used at the college level (NCAA women's), except when a play originates in one official's primary and moves towards the basket. In that case, the official in whose primary the play starts takes the play all the way to the basket and will generally take the foul.

Please note the use of the word generally in this post and in the previous post. If you and I have a double whistle and the foul is in your primary, I will generally let you take the foul. However, if I see something that I think you may have missed, I'll come and tell you and then let you make the final call. And if we have a double whistle with a fist and a palm, or with two preliminary signals that are different, then we'll get together and decide what we have (which might, in fact, be a double foul), at which point you will take whatever call to the table.

I hope you're less sad now.

Using or recommending NCAAW mechanics for HS games makes me sad. :(

But this being my 4,000th post makes me happy! :)

As I said above, these are the state-approved mechanics for HS girls basketball in NY. They happen to be similar in this case to NCAAW mechanics. (NY uses NCAAW rules for girls HS ball; the mechanics are also patterned to some extent after NCAAW mechanics.)

So I use HS mechanics for my HS games. How 'bout that?

To me, it seems more likely for a blarge to be a legitimate double foul than for two knuckleheads jockeying down in the post.

You have to do what is done in your area. I think that it is unfortunate that you have to use NCAA rules for your HS girls games, but that's the way it is. (Of course, I would like to see the NCAA and NFHS rules merged and become the same for both levels of play. However, that is just a fantasy.)

Now I am confused about exactly what you folks do back there. Could you provide some more detail?
1. Do you use straight NCAAW rules for these games or a hybrid of those and NFHS?
2. Same question for your mechanics. Although you have indicated that these are not done by the NCAAW book.

Here's why I ask:
Under NFHS this would be a double foul. The two officials are not permitted to come together and decide upon only one call.
Under NCAAW, the two officials are to get together and decide upon a single call. It is my understanding that a double foul is not permissible in this case.

So which way do you do it in NY?

I know this doesn't really have anything to do with the thread, but I disagree with this. In my mind, a crash simply CAN'T be both a block and a charge. Either the defender was legal or not. Obviously the two refs can see it differently and make different calls, but one of them is wrong.

It's much more likely that two boneheads just whack each other at the same time. Was there one that came first? Probably. But there will be the occasion where they foul at the same time.

I can imagine a blarge situation that's a double foul, but it sure isn't the run of the mill blarge. The one I imagine looks like two rams butting heads...

I agree that for run of the mill blarges, if you have 2 calls one of them is likely wrong.

But a foul can be a force-out?

You're wierd.

Btw, I think that the NCAA Mens and NFHS rulesmakers probably agree with you. It really does have to be one or t'other in real life, but they had to come up with something to use when 2 officials had different calls on the same play and neither wanted to back down. You know....being <i>macho</i> and all that. Of course, the NCAA Wimmen didn't think that would be a problem at all......so they put in a different rule:
<i>"You, make the call, Mildred."
"No, no. <b>You</b> make the call, Agnes. I insist!"</i>:D

No, no, no, no. I was just saying what the ref DID, not whether it was correct. He called a force-out, when he should've called a foul.

I'm rubber, you're glue. . .

If they did, they'd go to the women's rule. Give up the call to the person who has primary responsibility for it.

The feeling is mucilage.

Remember: 'weird' is weird.

Don't blame me: blame the Saxons.

There's a liitle background story behind the "wierd" spelling.

Scrapper, who is just a great Yankees fan, once posted that all BoSox fans are "wierd". I just like to remind him of that.

"There is a weird power in a spoken word. ...And a word carries far - very far- deals destruction through time as the bullets go flying through space." - Joseph Conrad

We use NCAAW rules with a few small modifications. The mechanics are given to us by the state.

The details can be found here: http://www.nysgboa.com/

If your fantasy is to have HS and college rules be the same, why is it unfortunate that that's almost exactly what we do here in NY on the girls side?

Gotta love Conrad. And remember: English was the THIRD language of this master stylist.

Weird. ;)

Getting away from the language posts....I've never had a blarge, but I do use the double foul on occasion to clean up post play early. Of course we try to get the first foul, but once in a while we let things go a little to long and it gets too physical down there. In the OP, I would have taken the call from the primary. Good communication is the key. On a double whistle, I usually will tap myself on the chest if it's in my primary, or point to my partner if they should take it. Occasionally I'll get together with my partners to talk it out, but in most cases I think this can be handled with nonverbal communication.

Careful.

Mildred and Agnes can still kick your butt.

And, in the case of the "standard" block/charge call, there can be only a block, or a charge, but not both. So Mildred and Agnes would be getting it right by coming out with only one foul in that case.