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a rough night
Had a rough game last night. Been fighting bad cold last few days, knew it would be tough personally. This is my first year, but was glad to know that my partner was a four year veteran.
I became concerned that experience may not be all that great when he started complaining before the game that he isn't working any varsity games yet. :rolleyes: During the game, there were several sloppy incidents, but I will name two: 1) holding on B2, away from the ball, my call. I report to the table, table advises A is in bonus. Partner has A lined up for throw in. I communicate we're in the bonus, shooting 1-and-1. He runs up to me, says this is team control foul, no shots. I say its not team control on a defensive foul, he persists, so I tell him to report that to the table. He is veteran, and the R, so what else can I do? 2) had trouble with 2 players going at it all night, pushing back and forth. called a push on B1, a ball on throw in. away from ball, these 2 guys pushing again. DOUBLE FOUL. I report, partner is signaling for alternate possession. I didn't realize mistake (should have been point of interruption) until it was too late. The main reason I am posting, other than double checking my understanding of above, is what are thoughts/comments about the wisdom of discussing this with assigning secretary? I certainly don't want to sound like a complainer or a know-it-all, but I do want to work with guys that they have confidence in, and know that I can learn from. Partner is a good guy, and I have no problems getting along with him or anyone else. But, based on how things went in this game, I don't feel like I can take any of the insight that was offered me. Is that something I should say or should I keep my mouth shut? Thanks! |
[QUOTE=refnjoe]Had a rough game last night. Been fighting bad cold last few days, knew it would be tough personally. This is my first year, but was glad to know that my partner was a four year veteran.
I became concerned that experience may not be all that great when he started complaining before the game that he isn't working any varsity games yet. :rolleyes: Now we know why During the game, there were several sloppy incidents, but I will name two: 1) holding on B2, away from the ball, my call. I report to the table, table advises A is in bonus. Partner has A lined up for throw in. I communicate we're in the bonus, shooting 1-and-1. He runs up to me, says this is team control foul, no shots. I say its not team control on a defensive foul, he persists, so I tell him to report that to the table. He is veteran, and the R, so what else can I do? Line A up to shot their shots. 2) had trouble with 2 players going at it all night, pushing back and forth. called a push on B1, a ball on throw in. away from ball, these 2 guys pushing again. DOUBLE FOUL. I report, partner is signaling for alternate possession. I didn't realize mistake (should have been point of interruption) until it was too late. IMO, this was allowed to go on too long. Double should have been called sooner. The main reason I am posting, other than double checking my understanding of above, is what are thoughts/comments about the wisdom of discussing this with assigning secretary? I certainly don't want to sound like a complainer or a know-it-all, but I do want to work with guys that they have confidence in, and know that I can learn from. Did you all do a pre-game conference before taking the floor. IMO, this could have eliminated some of the issues about rules? |
truerookie- you are probably right, a double may have served its purpose sooner. it did get the message across, however. And, kudos to the advice I had read on here before about that very issue. If it hadn't been for suggestions on here, I doubt I would have called it.
We did pregame, and not sure what else we could have done to prevent these issues. It may be that I said too much as it was- I let my partner know that I was having a rough night and let me know if he sees anything. Maybe that was suggesting to him that I wasn't going to be on top of things and he didn't need to listen to me... ? |
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It's OK if they don't know the rules, aint it?? My buddy Scrapie sez it's OK. |
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refnjoe - I think you should contact your assignor and explain to him what happened. Be general in your comments and be ready to provide a specific example (like the foul on B2 away from the ball where your partner denied Team A FT's claiming it was a "team control foul"), if needed. You could close the phone call with something like: "since this is my first season working for you, how would you like for me to handle this situation if it occurs again?"
You certainly want to develop a realtionship with your assignor that communicates your competency, your responsibility, and your desire to improve/learn from experiences. Don't think of this conversation as you being a "tattle tale", think of it as getting the advice of the assignor as to how to handle this in the future. |
Don't defer to him if he is wrong. (Important notice- you better be ABSOLUTELY sure that you are right since you're the rookie.)
You are complicit in screwing this up if you allow him to come in and pull rank when you know that he is wrong. You are also hurting your ability to advance. If I am working the varsity game, and see the JV officials do this, I am not exactly going to recommend either one to work a higher level game. Here is how this conversation needs to go: R: Wait, partner, there are no free throws! This was a team control foul! U: No, I have a DEFENSIVE foul on RED 32. White is shooting a 1-and-1. R: It was a foul away from the ball, we can't shoot free throws! U: The team control foul rule is for fouls on OFFENSIVE players. We can't stand here and argue about it. White is shooting a 1-and-1 and I will take personal responsibility for any hot water we get into if I am wrong. Then go to the baseline and administer the free throw. If your partner continues to make an issue of it after the game, call your assignor before you start your car so that he hears your side of the story first. |
The words, "Defensive Foul" should have ended this discussion. Obviously your co-official's head was NOT in the game. You can't let a "veteran" overrule you JUST because they are a veteran. I know guys that have been calling for 20+ years that are AWFUL, and I call with a guy that is already calling Varsity games in only his 2nd year. Years calling doesn't make you a great or knowledgeable official. The goal should always be to get the call right.
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Nicely put, lpneck.....
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Thanks for all the comments/suggestions. I certainly learned a lot from that game, and know that I will handle it differently if a similar situation arises in the future. One of my assigning secretaries advised me that, generally speaking, the calling official has the right to overrule, so it would have been acceptable for me to do as some suggested and line A up to shoot the 1-and-1.
I also know that I need to work on better communication with my partners. I also know that these forums are helping to make me a better official!! :) |
refnjoe, To your comment. I agree you have a pool of very talented officials on the web. As a new official, and I say this very carefully where some may not agree with me. I'm not saying you don't want to report it to your assignor. Keep the politics always in the back of your mind and how it works in your association. Get some feedback from someone you know better than your partner and see how this works. i just get nervous about that. You may be pulling the trigger on not getting anymore varsity games.. Just IMO!
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Find a mentor and talk to them about these situations first before you go reporting it to an assignor. Reporting something to the assignor should be your last resort. A mentor should be able to talk to you about who this official is and why they are working with you in this game. If you are a rookie, that must mean you are not working a very high level game. You are also talking about a 4 year guy. He is not that much more experienced than you are.
You need to always ask yourself when you work games with any partner, "Why are they working with me?" You can ask this question at any time and at any level. Sometimes they are there to save your behind from making mistakes to they are working the level you are at because they are not that good. This might help give you confidence when you know a rule is being kicked to take charge. You should have taken charge in this situation, but you had to go through this to realize this in the end. Peace |
Thanks JRut & Fred, I appreciate those thoughts.
I do have a couple friends that I know in my other professional life- one has been in my association for 10 years, and the other for about 5. I did run it by the 10-year vet and he gave me guidance on how I should approach the issue and who I should talk to. The advice that I got is that they would want me to say something. Without getting into the details, I didn't take it to THE assigning secretary, but spoke to an assistant and a JV rep. I also made it clear that I wasn't complaining. Rather, I asked them about the association's expectations of me and refrained from mentioning the day of the game, team names, or my partner's name. Based on the response I got, it seemed that the advice I received was sound and I'm glad I spoke to them. |
I'm not so sure I agree with everyone's thought pattern here. Pretty much everyone is saying stand your ground with a senior official. Go line up the players and shoot the 1 - 1 against your senior partners ruling. This does not sound like a verry wise thing to do, especially if you are a rookie. Not to mention, you don't want to stand out there arguing with your partner about a call. This makes both of you look stupid. Make a decision and move on. If you are not the R for the game, stand down and let the R make the decision. If it's the wrong thing to do, it is on the R and it will come back to him.
Since we do not know the R side of the story. I'm going to withhold judgement. However, I will say this, challenging a more senior partner could be detrimental to your career. Don't ever think it's okay to show up your partner like you have been advised to do here. That's like showing up your dad. Yea, you are right but..... If you are not the person responsible to make the decision, then yeild to that person. One day you will be that person and you will be the wisher. The next thing you need to do in my opinion is call the person that assigned you the game. Get their advise about the play in question so that you can learn and let the assigner get back to the Referee of the game. If the R did something wrong, the assigner will get back to him. By doing this, you cover your bases. Peace |
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btw, do you know anyone named JMO? |
Battle of wits with an unarmed partner
Your partner put you in a very unfortunate situation. You've got to decide whether to stand your ground, or let it go. No self-respecting, intelligent official wants to knowingly get a rule wrong. On the other hand, how much conflict with your partner will be required to get it right if he really wants to fight you on this? You've still got a game to manage and getting into a heated exchange with your partner while the world looks on isn't going to help that.
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My point simply was, let's not be so right that we rule out any other possibly and become defensive about our calls. This can lead to some nasty consequences of which nobody wins. I think as a society we are too quick to judge, especially when we don't have all the information. I have had personal experience with a senior partner changing my call in the game, in a very BIG game. The point I want everyone to know, especially new officials to the trade. The show is not about us! The game must go on. No official can change another officials call. However, when officials disagree, now the burden switches to the R and the R is responsible to make a decision. All of you are responsible to move the game on. Get the ball back in play asap. Discuss the play at a timeout, after the game, or if bad enough, with the assigner after the game. Peace |
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Just remember your next game has got to get better! Also, in some areas where there is no shortage of officials not working V ball after 4 years is a very common thing. Or its very possible that your guy is not very good. You make the call!
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Peace |
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(insert appropriate gif here) |
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Again, the rules citations are NFHS rule 2-6 and case book play 2-6SITA-RULING. All you have to do is look them up in <b>your</b> rule book and case book, and tell me why those citations aren't relevant. I think that they are. I await your response. |
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Sh!t Happens |
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Well, JMO, contrary to what you posted above, the R is <b>NOT</b> responsible to make a decision when officials disagree on a call in a situation like the one posted in this thread. I just wanted to make sure that any new or inexperienced officials reading your post didn't make the mistake of believing that your statement that he was might be correct. |
Section 2-5 is also helpful.
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I think any inexperienced official should not try and challenge the R on a ruling, even if he/she knows the R is wrong. That is a perfect recipe for disaster. Might take a long time to live that one down if not totally ruin the new official career for life. Peace |
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I don't want to get into a flame war with you, and it kinda looks like Bob really doesn't want me too either.:) But.....all you really had to do was look up the rules citations that I gave you, and you'd know exactly what the proper procedures to follow are when 2 officials disagree. And I can tell you that you won't find anything anywhere in there that I know of that states that the R can make a decision when 2 officials disagree, except for the one very specific situation that I also cited a rules reference for above--such situation not being relevant in any way to the situation that is being discussed in this thread. My point is that if you don't own rule and case books, or if you don't know the rules, it's probably not really a good idea to try and answer rules-related questions. |
Good grief. Here’s what you do. The calling official’s call stands. In this case, the calling official determined the penalty for the foul was bonus free throws. The R decided to overrule that call and have a spot throw-in instead. He overruled the other official, this is not allowed by rule.
In this case, when the officials disagree, the calling official makes the choice. It’s the same thing every time the officials disagree (OOB, fouls, etc.); except in one instance. |
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You must be a Yankees fan. And if both officials do happen to make a call at the same time, then they <b>must</b> decide between themselves what the final call will be- again except for the instance mentioned by Snaqs above and one other particular instance. To sum up, for anybody that cares, because I get the feeling that OLD School isn't going to look it up for us... - if the officials disagree about whether a basket should count or not, they get together and try to reach a consensus. If they can't, the R can then make the final decision- in <b>this</b> particular instance only. That's what Snaqs was referring to. - if the timer and scorer(s) disagree on something, then the R can decide. The R can also correct obvious timing errors and bookkeeping mistakes. - if 2 officials make different calls at approximately the same time on the same play, then they <b>must</b> decide between themselves which call they're going to go with. The R does <n>not</b> have the authority to make his own decision in a case like this. The exception to this is if each official called a foul on different players involved in the same play--i.e. on a block/charge. In this case, if the officials can't agree, then each player will be charged with a foul. Again though, the R can <b>not</b> step in and make a decision. It ain't rocket science. It's just rules that you should know. |
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Let me say it like this. I asked several senior officials what they would do in my situation. One DI official told me he would walk off the floor and tell the guy he could call the rest of the game without me cause it's obvious he doesn't need me. Maybe one day when I'm established like him I can pull that stunt. Now I understand that that's the macho thing to do, but I also understand that if I walk off an assignment, I'm just as wrong as the official who changed my call, and I might not ever get assigned to a game like that again. My motto Mr. JR is live to fight another day. Do you mind if I share that with the others who might have been in the same boat as I. I said it like this; "You're the R for the game, we're not going to sit here and quibble over who's right or wrong, we got a game to call and finish, go over to the table and tell them what we've going to do, explain it to the coaches and let's move on." It's your hide not mined. You would be surprised to learn what this assigner did after I told him what happen. |
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What JR was talking about was the rules as published, and the books where those rules are printed. You have never given any indication that you even care about the books, or the rules. What you do in a certain situation is completely irrelevant to the OP. You just set up a straw man (do you know what that means?) and then knock it over, but you don't address the original situation. The OP asked, "He's the veteran, what else could I do?" JR is telling him what the rules say about what OP could have done. You have your own opinions, but so what? As officials we follow rules as written, with some flexibility within what's prescribed. What OP could have done was to go to the table and say, "I called such and so, and that's what we're going to do" and then go to the appropriate place and get play started. If partner is *** enough to try to overrule at that point, then you let him be the one that walks away or stops the game inappropriately. Arguing is pointless. For the OP to stand up for himself and be firm isn't starting a war. It isn't either "my way or the highway" for the R. The U can stand firm without coming to blows, and that's what the rule book prescribes. It's really not this complicated, at least, it doesn't need to be. |
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You have made different statements over the course of your time registered as Old School that cannot be backed up by rule or case play. Most, if not all of the people that come here are looking for advice and discussion based upon the knowledge of the others. Since you have been free in posting your advice, it would be helpful for the others to know a few things about you. First, do you officiate basketball? Second, what levels do you currently officiate? Third, what qualifications do you have, or organizations do you belong to that help elevate your knowledge as an official? Once we find out the legitimate answers to these questions, you may (or may not) have less hostility directed towards your responses. |
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Fourth: Do you own a current NFHS rules and case book? I can't possibly think of any other way that you can properly and correctly answer rules-related questions without them. And that has nothing to do with flaming either. |
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#2) Protect the integrity of the participants #3) Protect the integrity of your crew #1 is way more important than #3...go as far as you need to to protect the game. |
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I also think it's over the top to silence another who views and opinions are different from yours. This is suppose to be America. One last thing. I do not thing the book goes far enough on the issue of when referee's disagree. What if both referees feel they are right? True, calling official has presidence over the call, but homer ref who's also the R doesn't let it go? In a situation like this, you are now outside the boundaries of the rulebook. Maybe it doesn't happen in the world you ref in, but I have seen it happen. A wise man once said, people who live in glass house should not throw stones. |
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Just so I understand you, are you saying that it's more important to get the administration correct and potentially "air dirty laundry" for all to see, or go with an incorrect administration and not cause a scene. Not trolling, just interested in getting a clarification. I think this is an interesting situation and I am glad that I know my partners well enough that all it would take is, "I'm 100% sure on this and I'll take the heat if I'm not". |
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Of course if the partner gets nasty and starts yelling and gesticulating, you back down. But that's not generally the problem. Generally, the newer, less experienced ref (who is also generally not the R) isn't sure whether to insist on his way, or not. When we say here that the R does not have the right to overrule the U, we're saying that the U needs to learn how to appropriately assert his own call, and administer it in a reasonable fashion. Whoever calls something has the right to go ahead and administer that call. No one has the right to overrule. If the "more experienced" ref tries to step in and insist on overruling, then the other calling official needs to know how to assert himself in an appropirate manner. It can be done. And it doesn't have to lead to blows or yelling. If I make a call and my partner insists on being obnoxious, I might back down for the sake of protecting the integrity of the game, or I might stand firm for the sake of the integrity of the game. Either way, I'm gonna report the idiot. And I have. What OP needs to know, is that yelling, fighting in public scenario isn't all that common, and it's not something that needs to be worried about. If OP will calmly but firmly manage the situation and assert his own correctness (even when he's wrong!), 90% (or more!) of partners will cope with it, and back down. Which is, btw, the right thing to do. |
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Protect the integrity of the game...doesn't need to involve any "airing" of anything...just do what needs to be done so the game is administered correctly...if the partner is screwing it up, don't back down just because he/she has more experience... |
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Soooooo......do you own a current NFHS ruleand case book? How about the <b>OFFICIALS MANUAL</b> if a mechanics question pops up? BTW, JMO always....:) |
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What if neither is sure (see the thread on foul-whistle-horn-shot for example)? What if there's (legitimately) a double (or triple) whistle and the officials disagree? |
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It took me over 4 pages to get to this point because you kept trying to change the subject and make my point about something that's not important. I call this the art of deception and you are very good at it. You are no different than the coaches and irate fans. I take it all in and I stay focus on the task at hand. I never lose focus on what I am trying to accomplish, now do I? I've already had one person who says I should be kicked off this forum. I can not tell you how many fans have said this to me in one way or the other in my career but I keep pushing on, inspite of and in the face of all this opposition. Love me or hate me, but I'm a true official for life. Peace, and BTW, who the heck is JMO? |
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And that still doesn't answer the question of whether you own a rule book and a case book, and what levels of ball you work, and what officiating affiliations you have. |
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Moderators, it's time to close this thread, preferably before OS gets the last word!! |
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And again, quite obviously <b>JMO</b>. |
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Their unanimous advice is the opposite of yours. As the calling official, it is my responsibility to administer the penalty. This wasn't a judgment call or an error in foul count for the bonus, etc. as you had suggested earlier, this was KICKING A RULE. They all said I should have lined up the shooter and shot the one and one. I was advised that if an evaluator had been present, or a coach complained about this incident, the R would have been suspended, and chances are I would have been as well. The best advice they gave me was to be confident enough to be sure of what I KNOW, and to admit when I don't know. That way, I know when to be firm and when to let experience prevail. |
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Peace |
And we'll throw some projection in just for fun. :D
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Peace |
Old School - good to see you back.
Did you see my post earlier?: Quote:
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Huh.
He disappeared again. |
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It's not hard to separate the real, live bonafide officials from the...well....non-officials. It's kinda basic that <b>real</b> officials would have the proper and appropriate rule books. You don't, do you? You, sir, are <b>not</b> an official. <b>JMO!!</b> |
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Now you have learned the supreme lesson of officiating: Experience does not equal talent. Wait 'til you work with the 30-year veteran who can't ref his way out of a wet paper bag. -And makes all of your calls for you.- That will be a fun night.
In talking with your assignor, phrase the experience using yourself as the example. "I wonder if I handled this right." I, I, I. Don't offer specifics until asked for them. Then get out of the way. |
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Lah me.....:rolleyes: |
So many questions, so little time.
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Since you insist on tagging me with this JMO label. Perhaps, I should change my moniker to JMO. |
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I also believe that you didn't answer any of M&M's questions. Any particular reason for that...um...lapse?:D |
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A quick side note. Because I didn't keep track of this moron senior official the first time I worked with him. I got him again 2 years later. Damn! I knew I remember this guy! Objective, keep good notes.... Quote:
As far as officiating. It is unacceptable for an assigner to put a guy out there on the court who doesn't know the rules or is too old. Unacceptable, but it happens. Now what are we going to do? I know I'm right, but... I worked a college playoffs game 2 years ago with a guy who couldn't even run up and down the court. We had to try to leave him in the C slot. I had no idea until the game started. This official needs to give it up. The assigner got no business giving him games. This is a problem and I got no idea how to solve it. |
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Maybe one day, if lucky, you will get to be a grandmother. Peace |
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Now he's not only morphed magically into an assignor, he's also doing college playoff games..... JMO and McGriffs <i>redux</i>......:) Tell us all about your pro games next. |
Hmm, and I always thought that thing in March was referred to as a tournament.
Maybe he meant that he worked the NBA playoffs? :rolleyes: |
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Okay, here's the issue. You asked how to handle a disagreement with a partner. You prescribed how you would do it, and think others should do the same. Several people have told you that that's not what the book says, and that's not even how it's handled in most of the country, but you keep insisting you know what's best. You keep asking questions that others keep answering, and then you are not answering the questions that people keep asking you. The issue has been focused on, answered and repeated, again and again. Part of "the issue" is your authority to insist that you're right and everyone else is wrong. Where do you get your authority? What book citations can you give for your position? What kind of ball do you work? WHat associations do you belong to? I am having a hard time focusing on the issue of your disagreements with JR and others, because I'm having a hard time keeping you as a referee in focus. You could help with that. What are your reffing credentials? btw, I am a grandmother. And I do indeed feel fortunate. I was lucky to be a mother at all, because of some physical difficulties, and now I'm a Nonna. Way, way past lucky. |
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And while I've gotten a little snippy with you, I certainly haven't attacked you like a piranha. And if you really think it's a "we" problem, then you can also stop attacking. So you've expressed your opinion, told why you think that way, and others have disagreed with you and told why they think their way. Are we at the point where we all agree to disagree? That would be fine with me. And probably everybody else on this thread. But it would still be nice to have some clue as to who you are and what your credibility is. It's just hard to understand where you're coming from, when we don't know where you're coming from. |
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Well, there is the wee, tiny matter of not owning any rule books and not knowing the basic rules, but that shouldn't really bring his credibility into question, should it? Huh? Should it?:D JMO obviously.... |
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Be not too concern as to who I am but what I represent. Peace |
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I will leave you with this, a wise man once said, it is best to be consistently bad than to be inconsistent. Peace |
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Who said this? What "wise man" would spout such completely inanity? You would rather ALWAYS be bad, than to be MOSTLY very good with a couple of bad moments? Really? That's the stupidest thing I've read in this forum in a long long time. Can we pull this idiot's account? |
My impression is that OS tries to foist these gems on us and to reel in a few by prefacing them with "a wise man once said."
Of course, Old School didn't know that the wise man prefaced his remark with: "Don't ever think that..." |
I think it would be best not to address Old School directly. If he says something about officiating basketball worthy of a reply just "quote" that portion of his post, delete his name from "quote=" and debate the merits of what the specific quote says.
Old School is obviously the alter-ego of one of our regular forum members. Maybe he's working on a thesis for his doctorate on human behavior and how humans respond to blatant idiocy. ;) |
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Chuck, how could you?!? |
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I figure that quote would go over your heads. Debate me if you choose, ignore me if you must, but don't hate me because I'm good. Peace |
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in·an·i·ty /ɪˈnænɪti/ –noun, plural -ties for 2. 1. lack of sense, significance, or ideas; silliness. 2. something inane. 3. shallowness; superficiality. Quote:
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Seriously -- your postings, in general, do not comply with the tone that we want on this board. I've tried to go easy on you, and delete some posts (or parts thereof) from certain members who also crossed the line. I hoped that you would learn. If you want to stay, please change. |
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Peace |
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Wow, Smitty, I'm impressed!! We all work for seven pages, and two weeks, and you get it out of him in just a few well chosen words. You are truly a,
let's see, what is it JR? Person of great wisdom? Yankees fan? How does that go? (insert gif of cute little grovellers bowing to a great leader) |
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