Foul then Buzzer then shot - Interesting brand new ruling
 

http://www.district3hoops.com/index....s/thisweek.htm

See what you guys think about this.

Foul then whistle then buzzer then shot appears to be what the ruling is based upon.

Makes sense to me; I like it.

I disagree with part of the ruling. What they did when they put a second back on the clock because of definite knowledge was correct--i.e. counting the basket and having 1 FT with 1 second on the clock and the teams lined up.

But...if they didn't have definite knowledge to put time back on the clock, then time ran out before the ball was in the air and the basket won't count. NFHS rule 6-7-6&7 & EXCEPTION(c). See the language in case book play 6.7SitC also- <i>"The ball would ordinarily become dead at once, but it remains live if the foul is by the defense, and this foul occurs after A1 has started the try or tap for goal and <b>time does NOT expire before the ball is in flight</b>".</i> The rule cited- R5-6-2EXCEPTION3 is not relevant because that exception only refers to a ball being in flight <b>before</b> the horn, not <b>after</b> the horn. In that case, A1 will be awarded 2 FT's with no time on the clock and no one lined up on the lanes. That's exactly what was being discussed in the other thread.

In this situation, the only definite knowledge you have is that the shot was released before time should have expired, based on the fact that the whistle blew before the horn sounded. That’s enough knowledge to count the basket but not enough to put any time back on the clock.

What if you see the clock as you blow the whistle and it does not read 00:00?

Then you have definite knowledge, and put the amount you could see on the clock. Right?

Any advice on how to have definite knowledge of how much time is on a clock counting down tenths of seconds? Those suckers move fast.

Can you find a rule somewhere to back that up, and negate the <b>specific</b> language of the rules that I cited? A rule that says that you <b>can</b> count a basket even though the shot <b>wasn't</b> in the air when the horn went off?

If you can't put time back on the clock, by rule, then there isn't any rule extant that I know of that states you can just go ahead and ignore the horn. If you can find one, please cite it.

Youhput back exactly what you see back on the clock. If the first thing that you see is 0.3 seconds, then that's what put back on. If you're not sure, you can't put anything back on.

Agreed. Without definite knowledge, you cannot put time back on the clock or count the basket.

I agree with JR and BktBallRef. The new ruling eliminating lag time would only come into play if the officials had definite knowledge of the exact time remaining and would then put that time on the clock and count the basket. Without that the basket cannot count. The elimination of lag time does not override the following still extant rulings.

The basket would count by the following rule if the try is released before the horn.

5-6 exception 3.
If a foul occurs so near the expiration of time that the timer cannot get the clock stopped before time expires or after time expires, but while the ball is in flight during a try or tap for field goal. The quarter or extra period ends when the free throw(s) and all related activity have been completed. No penalty or part of a penalty carries over from one quarter or extra period to the next. No free throw(s) shall be attempted after time has expired for the fourth quarter or any extra period, unless the point(s) would affect the outcome of the game.

However, by this case book play, which is still in the current book, the basket DOES NOT count if it comes after the horn and there is no obvious timing mistake.

5.6.2 SITUATION D: Team A trails 60-59 with just a few seconds remaining in the fourth quarter of play. A1 is fouled in the act of shooting by B1 but time expires before the ball is in flight. A1 is awarded two free throws. The coach of Team B is charged with a technical foul before A1's attempts. A1 makes: (a) neither throw; (b) one throw; or (c) both throws. When does Team A shoot the free throws resulting from the technical foul? RULING: In (a) and (b), the two free throws for the technical foul are attempted as part of the fourth quarter as the foul occurred before the fourth quarter had ended. In (a), the two free throws for the technical foul will determine if an extra period is necessary. In (b), the one successful free throw ties the game and if either free throw for the technical foul is successful, no extra period is required. In (c), the two successful free throws dictate there will be no extra period. The free throws for the technical foul are not administered as the outcome of the game has been determined. A quarter or extra period does not end until all free throws which could affect the outcome of the game have been attempted and related activity has been completed. (4-41-1; 5-6-3 Exception; 6-7-7)

Wouldn't this fall under the section of continuous motion (NFHS 4.11.2), or does the horn negate the shot even when "...the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight."?

6-7-6 The ball becomes dead when time expires for a quarter or extra period.


exception: article 6 occurs while a try or tap for a field goal is in flight.

Continuous motion does not allow a release after the horn.

Right.

A dead ball can never score. Supports what Jurassic and other said.

The elimination of lag time does not affect this rule in any way.

A hell of a topic here guys. I think this is one that the NFHS might have missed with the lag time being taken out. There seems to be evidence in the rulebook to put time back on the clock and count the basket or to not count the basket and give the free throws with no time remaining.

Personally, with lag time being eliminated I am going to count the basket if it goes and put at least .4 on the clock in almost all circumstances so the opposing team can have a catch and shoot if possible. You all might not think its right, but if I am the R that night and my partners are alright and maybe just maybe if they are not alright with it that is how I would do it. I am going to do what I think is right and fair for the kids, and sometimes what is right and fair to the kids might be something to the contrary of what I just said. Until I hear an official clarification of what the NFHS wants to do I am going to invoke elastic power.

I recently spoke with an official who has a similar philosophy about the note in 5-8-2. His position is that he is not going to stop play when a team attempts a try for goal and misses, if he can see that they have an easy rebound and put back. He feels that is the right thing to do in the case of an opponent being down injured away from the area of the play.

It seems that by the book, the whistle should be blown, no rebound permitted, and the game resumed with the AP arrow.

How do others feel about this? Is this a poor NFHS rule? Should we follow it anyway? Should we ignore it? Should we lobby for it to be changed?

1) If you think that there is evidence in the rule book, then please cite your evidence.

2) Um, no, I sureasheck <b>know</b> that it's not right. I also know that making a call like that deliberately and ignoring written rules would get you suspended in my area. Putting time back on the clock when you <b>don't</b> know how much time should go back on and then counting a shot that shouldn't be counted by rule might cost a team a game. If the opposing team was up by 2 or 3 when you decided to give the shooting team that <b>free</b> basket, it gives them a shot a tying or winning a game that they <b>shouldn't</b> have a shot at. If you think that's <b>"right"</b>, your concept of "right" sureasheck is different than mine. The "NFHS official clarification" has been in the rule book, unchanged, for at least the last 50 years. If a shot isn't in the air when a period ends, it <b>doesn't</b> count and it <b>never</b> has counted.

You said "in ALMOST all circumstances" also. What determines when you feel like enforcing or not enforcing a rule? Iow, sometimes you'll count the basket and sometimes you won't?

Btw, it was the <b>same</b> way when we did have "lag time" too. The rules wouldn't allow you to guess at how much time to put back on the clock and you can't count a basket when the ball wasn't in the air when a period ended.

What is it lately with posters here saying just ignore the rules if you don't happen to like or agree with them?:rolleyes:

Continuation does not allow for a release after the horn.

I did not know that. I always thought once the act of shooting motion has started, the shooter is allowed to complete the act. This is a great topic.

What if, you put air in the whistle on a foul where you feel the shooter has started his habitual moition, and the horn goes off, and the player passes the ball instead of shooting it, and the team is not in the bonus. Is the game over or do you put time back on the clock, or do you award foul shots?

Great question, I'm glad you bought it up. I did not know that little difference in the rules. I could be in the act of shooting, but if the ball has not left my hands, no shot.

Jurassic by eliminating lag time you have to count the basket if you know for a fact that the horn came after the whistle. By eliminating lag time that means that time has to be put back on the clock, cause if your whistle blows before the horn then the clock should have stopped when the whistle blew. This is why I do like and do not lag time being eliminated. I like it because you can put exact time back on if you know the time for sure and kids don't get screwed at the end of games if their was under 1 second left, but I don't like it because in the college and pro game in this situation they have had it eliminated because they can go to the replay monitor and check and see when the foul was committed and how much time should be up. If the foul is committed before the horn and the horn goes off, they put time back on. If it is determined that the horn went off before the foul the game is over. You can not count it as much as you want but it just seems that the NFHS needs to go back over all plays that would have to deal with lag time and correct them.

Just to state as well:

I had a game in the preseason where this play happened. We had a foul, then horn. Although the ball did not go in we gave the kid 3 shots without putting time back on the clock and I was devastated when I screwed that up on top of not giving the coach of the opposing team a timeout before the FT's because I was thinking of successive timeout's at the end of a game and/or overtime. Needless to say I screwed the whole thing up.

Good point. The clock should have stopped JR on the whistle, and I have definite knowledge my whistle went off b4 the horn, which means count the bucket, continuation. And we put .XX seconds back on the clock.

Not in all college games. I'm not sure I understand your point on lag time being eliminated. My point here is that now, you can count continuation of the shooting motion because the clock should have stopped on the whistle. At first I was thinking the horn came before the shot was release and therefore no shot. My question is: If you are in the act of shooting, you release the shot 2-point try, it's unsuccessful, horn goes off, 1 point game, before returning to the floor shooter is fouled. Is the foul ignored because the period has ended? Or do we count the foul as a shooting foul as it is part of the act of shooting? Maybe I've confused myself, that's not hard to do but I'm wondering if the same priniciples apply in a different but same type of situation.

I have to admit I am not following this one real well so forgive me but on the original ruling from the Cawtaba River association are they trying to say that due to the elimination of lag time that this is a circumstance under which you would count a basket as good even though the horn blows before the shooter has released the ball?

Point by point......

1) No, btaylor, you do <b>not</b> count the basket unless the ball was in the air <b>BEFORE</b> the horn. There is <b>NOT</b> now and there <b>NEVER</b> has been any rule that will allow you to do that. NFHS rules 6-7-6&7 and 6-7EXCEPTION(c) tell you different. If you can find rule(s) somewhere that will back up your statement above, then please cite it/them.

2) No, it sureasheck <b.DOESN'T</b> mean that you <b>HAVE</b> to put time back on the clock. You can only put time back on the clock if you're 118% sure of the <b>EXACT</b> time that must go back on the clock.You have to have <b>DEFINITE</b> knowledge to put time back on the clock. Says so right in NFHS rule 5-10-1. It don't matter a damn whether the clock should have stopped or not. If it didn't, you can't put any time back on unless you know the exact time that you need to put back on. There's no guessing allowed, and there never has been. In this particular situation, the officials did <b>NOT</b> have definite knowledge of how much time was on the clock when their whistle blew. That's why they can't go back and put <b>ANY</b> time on.

Based on your answer here JR I guess then that they are trying to justify counting a basket when the horn goes off before the release.

I'll tell you what JR. If you and me and someone who believes this are 3-manning together this year and they make this call then THEY are the one that are going to get to explain it to the coach ALL BY THEMSELVES. While you and me stand waaaaaaaayyy over on the other side of the court. Perhaps even next to the exit.

D@mmit! Now I have to rethink my position on this. :)
Seriously, I'm not trying to justify anything or to ignore any rules. I'm looking at the removal of the lag time and thinking about its affect on the rest of the game; particularly the end of the game.
I think an argument can be made to support counting the bucket and ending the game. I have definitely knowledge that the shot was released before time should have elapsed (a timer's error), but I don't know how much time to put on so I can't put any on.
I'll get home and look up the rules cites that JR gave, though, before I stick to my guns on this.
Also, I'm going to get direction from my assignor at tomorrow night's association meeting to see how they want us to handle it at the local level.

What we've got here, is a failure to communicate.

"Definite knowledge" is a specific number. It is <B>not</B> "I know my whistle blew before the horn." Iow, you cannot guess what number to put back on the clock in this situation, even if you know there is some time to be put back on. Hopefully someone in the crew will know that number. But only "The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock."

I think a point that needs to be made here is that perhaps trying to think of its affect on the rest of the game is thinking too much.

It's doubtful that I do, but if I understand everybody else's argument then another way of shooting this down is to say that if you blow your whistle and (based on the elimination of the lag time) the clock was supposed to have stopped at that instant....then the ball was released when the clock was supposed to have been stopped (and you plan to put time back on),,,,so it's a dead ball that is being released...still no basket.

Also it certainly wasn't the intent of the elimination of the lag time to allow for baskets to be counted that didn't used to be counted. There was never any demand for that one.

Just because the clock stops doesn't mean the ball is dead. If the shooter is in his habitual motion, then the ball remains live even if the clock is stopped for a foul.

They do have definite knowlege that time had not run out. The whistle had sounded, but not the horn, therefore time had not run out, ipso facto. They have no definite knowlege of how much time was left, just that there was indeed some time left. This should be enough to allow the basket, and shoot the foul shot with the lane cleared. QED.

I would suggest that the ruling as posted on the district3hoops site is correct.

So how does that fit in the wording of rule 5-10-1?

True. But I am trying to speaking in the context of what they are trying to justify here.... whether or not the basket would count if the ball is released after the horn goes off. And the official calling this would have to seemingly retroactively count the basket because....the clock should have stopped therefore allowing the basket to count even though the release itself was after the horn.

I just don't think that this was the intent of the rule change.

The elimination of lag time does not mean that the timer is expected to stop the clock immdiately when the whistle sounds. What it does mean is that when the referee has definite knowledge of the time that was remaining (not the fact that there was time remaining), the clock can be reset to that specific time. The rulebook supports the fact that timers can't always stop the clock perfectly in 5-6-2, Exceptions 2 & 3.

A few rules observations:

First, 6-7-6 states that the ball becomes dead when time expires. The exceptions to this rule only come into play if the shot has been released.

Second, 5-6-2 states that a period ends when the horn sounds. 1-14 further emphasizes that the "audible timer's signal" which indicates "that time has expired for a quarter or extra period."

Given those two points, if the shooter is holding the ball in his/her hands when the horn sounds, we have a dead ball.

Third, 5-1-1 states that a goal is scored when a live ball enters the goal. Since we have a dead ball as soon as the horn sounds (whether, ideally, it should have or not), the basket cannot be scored.

I believe that 5-6-2 exception 3 actually gives the best argument for why the goal should not count in this argument. The situation is nearly the same, but the rulebook specifically states that the ball is in the air before the horn sounds. If the rules committee wanted a shot to count after the buzzer, then this situation would have been mentioned in the rulebook or casebook itself.

Do I think this is fair? No. I believe that the clock should have stopped, therefore the shot should count. However, until the rule is changed, I'm waving off the shot.

P.S. for any of the NCAA gurus - I seem to recall a bulletin a few years back which said that if you blew the whistle, then the horn went off, you would huddle, "figure out how much time was left," then put that back on the clock. Can anyone shed any light on this?

QED me up a rules citation that will back your supposition up and negate the citations that I gave.

QED's don't mean squat unless they have rules backing. There was no rules backing for the answer posted on the district3hoops site. It's that simple.

Just to play the devil's advocate a bit...

A few plays (that I made up) with rulings based on Jurrassic's views (as I understand them)...

With A down by 3 and the shot in the plays is for 2 points...

Play: A1 starts a shot, is fouled, whistle is blown, ref sees 0.3 seconds on the clock and the clock stops at 0.3, A1 then releases the shot (more than 0.3 seconds later), the shot goes in. Ruling: count the basket, shoot 1 FT.

Play: A1 starts a shot, is fouled, whistle is blown, ref sees 0.3 seconds on the clock but clock runs out, horn sounds, A1 then releases the shot, the shot goes in. Ruling: put 0.3 second on the clock, count the basket, shoot 1 FT.

Play: A1 starts a shot, is fouled, whistle is blown, ref can't see the clock (or doesn't look at the clock) and it runs out, horn sounds, A1 then releases the shot, the shot goes in. Ruling: put no time on the clock, don't count the basket, no FT's, A loses.


In this last case, the ref KNOWS that the whistle clearly preceeded the horn, that the clock should have stopped with time left, that the shot would be during a live ball if the clock had been properly stopped, that team A should be on the line with a chance to tie the game. The only difference may be that the ref was at an angle to the clock where he/she couldn't see the exact time of the whistle....but it was clearly before the horn. Why should the shot depend in seeing the clock? I could see the argument for not putting time back up (but even that is debateable...I have a count in my head in all endgame situations just for that occurance that I'll use even if I can't see the clock), but waiving off the shot too??

So you're saying that if I was "118%" sure and I did see how much was left I could put that time back on the clock and count the basket. No you're not saying that cause that play is not covered in the rulebook or casebook and that is all you seem to know. You wouldn't know about common sense officiating and doing what is fair and right for the players, and the game.

What about the Patrick Sparks 3 against Michigan State in the NCAA tournament 2 years ago. The rule book or officials manual one says that if you are unsure if a basket is a 2 or 3 it is considered a 2 point basket. Those guys even with replay, I guarantee you, could not determine if that was a 3 or not, but they used good common sense officiating and did what was right and fair for the game and kids and let that game go to overtime.

But I'm not going to argue the point with you anymore, as that is not what I come on here to do.

Rule 5-10
ART. 2 . . . If the referee determines that the clock was not started or stopped properly, or if the clock did not run, an official's count or other official information can be used to make a correction.


If I say that 0.5 seconds elapsed between the whistle and the horn because I was counting, it is official. I don't have to see the clock in this case. I know that the whistle was the start of the interval and the end was signaled by the horn. If I counted that duration, I can fix it.

I have to disagree with play #2. If I get that situation, I'm cancelling the basket, putting 0.3 on the clock, then having A1 shoot 2 free-throws. Coach won't like it, but that's what's written in the rulebook, by my interpretation.

No, the shot was ruled a 3 on the floor, and, lacking clear evidence on the video to change it, they left it unchanged.

Why? If you're putting time on the clock, time didn't really expire. It was just a random horn.

If that were true, the home team should always let the clock run at the end of the game when the visiting team is trying to tie the game or take the lead on a last second shot.

Can't seem to find the bulletin, but I can tell you this happened in a game two years ago (IU @ Purdue 1/15/05). Purdue fouled (whistle), horn, release, made basket. Officials checked the courside monitor to confirm foul occurred prior to expiration of time. They granted continuous motion and scored basket (which tied the game) and sent Purdue player to the line where he missed the game winning FT (IU eventually won 75-73 in 2OT's). I believe that the crew was suspended 1 game as a result of counting the basket.

Not covered in the rulebook? :confused:

How many freaking times do I have to cite the <b>APPLICABLE</b> rules to you?

<font size = +4><b>Rule 5-10-1, Rule 6-7-6, Rule 6-7-7, Rule 6-7EXCEPTION(c) </b></font>

Um yeah, agreed......but I'm talking about officials who <b>don't</b> have an official's count and <b>don't</b> have a clue re: how much time to put back on the clock. Rule 5-10-1 says that they can't put any time back on the clock, lacking definite information of some kind. Agree?

<font size =-2>Which ones again?</font size>

I do think the rules suggest that the official must have some idea of a time to put back but it seems very inconsistent and unfair to both kill the bucket AND not put time back. That time could be as little as 0.1 second.

The bucket should count, IMHO, even if the ref doesn't put time back on the clock.

Time did expire, though. Ideally, it wouldn't have, but it did. This is not analagous to the scorer buzzing the horn with 6:15 to go because of an illegal substitution.

The problem is though that you have to have rules backing to count the bucket. Or do you?

It isn't a question of what's "fair". It's a question of what the rules will let you do. If you count that basket, how do you then explain it when the coach that lost the game because you counted the basket puts in a complaint? Think of the poor assignor that has to answer that one, without lying..

I'm a little concerned about all this mention of looking at the clock and noting the time, in tenths no less, when the whistle blows on a last-second shot attempt. I hope that nobody goes into this scenario so intent on noting the time that he/she misses A1 doing a Chuck Norris move on B1 as he tries to tip one in at the buzzer.

JR is correct
 

JR has it right. It is in the rule book in plain black and white.

For those who do not want to read the book

6-7 DEAD BALL "The ball becomes dead or remains dead when:
Art. 6 ... Time expires for a quarter or extra period (see exception a below)
Art. 7 ... A foul, other than player- or team-control occurs (see exceptions a,b,c below)

EXCEPTION: The ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends, or until the airborn shooter returns to the floor, when:
a. Article 5, 6, or 7 occurs while a try or tap for a field goal is in flight.
b. Article 5 or 7 occurs while a try for a free throw is in flight.
c. Article 7 occurs by any opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for goal (is in the act of shooting) before the foul occurred, provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight. The trying motion must be continuous and begins after the ball comes to rest in the player's hand(s) on a try or touches the hand(s) on a tap, and is completed when the ball is clearly in glight. The trying motion may include arm, foot or body movements used by the player when throwing the ball at his/her basket."

The here is clearly stating that if a foul occurs, whistle, then buzzer, then shot that the ball will be considered a dead ball. Penalize the foul, but you cannot count the basket. The only exception to this would be 5-10-1 where the official has definite knowledge of the time. That states:

"The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock."

In this case the official is saying the quarter did not end, time is being place back on the clock, therefore a made basket after the horn (provided it was continuous motion) would be counted. Without that exact knowledge of the time, a made basket is waived off, and the FTs will end the period.

I'm confused Mark. If you have definite knowledge that there was .3 seconds remaining in the game when the foul occurred why then are you cancelling the basket?

5-10 seems to say that the quarter has not ended if you have definite knowledge of the time remaining therefore you can count the goal, award the free throw and finish the game.

The horn sounding made the ball dead.

but by putting time back on the clock we're saying the horn sounding is a timer error aren't we?

I don't think so. The exception I referenced before (5-6-2 Exception 3) is pretty clear that the timer is not expected to be perfect in this situation.

I disagree. The timer may not be expected to be perfect, but if we're correcting the timer error, we need to let that bucket stand.

Okay, I don't think it clearly states what you say it does. If you have a player who starts his motion, the buzzer goes, the foul occurs, and the shot releases; then you have a clear instance where time expired before the shot was released.
"The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer." This, with the removal of lag time, means if you know for a fact that the shot was released before the horn should have gone off, you should count the basket. If you don't know the exact time; all you can do is count the basket and shoot the shot, if it will make a difference, with the lane cleared.
When we had lag time, it made sense to allow time to expire. Now that the fed is allowing us to correct even tiny timer errors....

6-7-7 says a ball becomes dead on a foul. The exception c, associated with article 7 says that if the foul is by an opponent, the ball will remain live if the player has started his/her motion for a shot. It further states that the shot MUST be released before the buzzer (or else it is dead).

The rule is explicitly stating not to count the bucket in the event of foul, whistle, buzzer, made hoop. Now comes the lag time rule change. Does this mean we ignore what is explicitly stated for the interpretations of our imaginations? I will agree this explicit rule does not seem to jive with the rule change regarding lag time and putting time back on the clock and that the shot must be part of the period by reason of logic and extension of the lag rule. So, does this case now become one for the committee to clarify? I hope they do. Where is the email address to send them these scenarios?

One more thing to add, while the ball remains live after this foul (due to the fact that fouled player is in the act of shooting), the clock is still supposed to stop. the fact is, the clock should have stopped, and removing lag time gives us the backing to enforce this.
I agree, I'd like a clarification on whether the committee intended this.

Yabut....hw do you <b>know</b> for a <b>fact</b> that the shot <b>would</b> have been released before the horn should have gone off? If there was...say....0.4 seconds left on the clock when you blew your whistle, can you honestly say that the shooter would have definitely</b> finished his shooting motion and got the ball airborne within that 0.4 seconds? And if you don't know <b>exactly</b> how much time was on the clock when you blew your whistle, how can you really "know for a fact" that the ball would have been in the air before the buzzer anyway?

The bottom line is that, if you don't know <b>exactly</b> how much time was left in the period <b>when</b> you blew your whistle and you can't also <b>accurately</b> keep track of the time remaining from that whistle to the end of the period to be 100% sure that the ball <b>was</b> in the air <b>before</b> the horn, then you are doing nothing but <b>guessing</b> from the time your whistle went off. And, unless you can find me a rule somewhere that says you're allowed to guess, then you <b>have</b> to go with the facts imo. And the only facts that you do know are that you don't know how much time to accurately put back on the clock and the ball was <b>not</b> in the air when the horn went to end the period. Then.....you just have to apply existing rules to the facts that you do possess.

JR why is it so hard to believe that that the official would know that "there was...say...0.4 seconds left"? It seems to me you could easily have a case where the L has the foul and the T looks at the clock after the whistle and sees a specific time on the clock, which would constitute definite knowledge.

Furthermore why does the official need to know that the shot would have been off before the buzzer? I agree with the earlier post that the removal of lag time has given the official (with definite knowledge) the ability to correct timer error no matter how minute. Therefore the game clock should be theoretically stopped at 0.4, or whatever time the official saw, and the continuation of the normal shooting motion would be allowed to continue as if the clock had stopped correctly. As far as 6-7-7c and the note about the horn, I believe that we should interpret this as a horn sounding correctly.

You are truely wise beyond your years.

You must be a Red Sox fan.

It doesn't matter how long it takes to release the shot. Blowing my whistle should stop the clock. If the clock stops as it is supposed to, the horn doesn't go off until some time after the free throw.

I emailed the guy in charge of the site and here is the response in part...

******

This is not my personal interpretation. This is an official interpretation from the NFHS. Perhaps when they think all this through, they may change it for next season. However, for now this is it.

..... This play came up during a national conference call in early November for high school rules and changes. As you might imagine, there was considerable discussion. The play was reviewed at the highest levels of the NFHS Basketball Rules Committee and the approved interpretation is the answer on our (www.district3hoops.com/rules/thisweek.htm) web site. The rule reference is Rule 5, Section 10 which is where "lag time" was removed.

*************

But it doesn't seem to be anywhere on the NF website or in the books.

1. 5-10-1 does not apply here, because there is no definite knowlege to correct the count. Therefore if the shot counts and there are to be free throws, the clock would be set to 0, and the lane cleared. do we agree on this much?

2. 6-7-6 does not apply, since time has not expired. The timer has sounded the horn in error. Time does not expire when the horn is sounded erroneously with one minute left, why would it expire when the horn is sounded in error with an undetermined amount of time left?

3. 6-7-7 A foul other than player or team control has occured, so we review the exceptions

4. Since time has not expired, the conditions in exception c are met, so the basket counts and the free throws should be awarded.

"c. Article 7 occurs by any opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for goal (is in the act of shooting) before the foul occurred, provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight."

Yabut....same question....if you blow your whistle with 0.4 seconds on the clock just <b>after</b> the shooter gathered the ball, are you completely, 100% sure that the shooter now has sufficient time to fully <b>complete</b> their shooting motion <b>and</b> get the ball in the air before that 0.4 seconds ended? And you don't know <b>for sure</b> whether it was 1.4 seconds or 0.4 seconds or even 0.1 seconds, do you? So....how can you be so sure the ball actually <b>would</b> be in the air if the timer stopped the clock <b>immediately</b> on your whistle?

If I blow my whistle at .1 second, the clock should stop on the whistle; not immediately after. If I'm looking at the clock as the whistle sounds, I put what was there when the whistle sounded, not immediately after. There is no longer lag time.
Therefore, if my whistle blows before the horn; I've got definite knowledge that time should not have expired before the shot was released.

Um yeah, and your point is?:confused:

If you have definite knowledge, you can put time back on the clock, by rule. In the case that we're discussing though, the officials did <b>not</b> have definite knowledge. That means that they <b>can't</b> put time back on the clock, also by the same rule.

You're bringing a completely different situation into play now.

Are you really telling me that a player can be fouled just as he picked the ball up, and that player could then go on and finish the rest of his shooting motion and get the ball in the air- all within 0.1 seconds?

That's ridiculous, Snaqs. There's a time lag between the foul on the shooter and the subsequent release of the shot. And that time lag could be a helluva lot longer than 0.1 or 0.4 seconds.

You're right. In a normal shot, the time between the start of the motion and the release of the shot is bound to be more than .4 seconds. And in most cases, that time will elapse off the clock, and in such case a last second shot may not count because he couldn't release it on time. If he's fouled, however, the clock stops and he's allowed to continue his motion with a stopped clock.

1) No. 5-10-1 DOES apply because it says you can't put ANYTHING back on the clock unless you know EXACTLY how much TIME to put on the clock. You also can't count a shot that wasn't in the air when the horn went.

2) Cite a rule telling me why 6-7-6 doesn't apply? According to the original post, time DID expire before the ball was in the air.

3) OK...let's review.

4) Um, the original post said that time did expire though before the ball was in the air, which is why (c) is applicable.

Again, you have NO rules backing to do what you want to do.

Agree, in all cases except thisvery particular one. In this one though, if you can't say the the clock stopped <b>exactly</b> at 0.4 seconds or some other completely <b>accurate</b> time, then you don't have the rules backing to go back and set the clock at <b>any</b> time <b>before</b> the horn.

Believe me, if anybody could convince me otherwise, I'd surrender in a NY minute. I'm growing old(er) discussing this one.:)

You keep saying that time expired. Time did not expire. The whistle sounded, then the horn went off.

With the elimination of the lag time, this means the clock should have been stopped before the horn sounded. The fact that is was not stopped makes this a timer's error.

This is the point of the whole article. Otherwise the elimination of the lag time makes no sense.

Me, too. And I'm still young enough to cling to my youth.

I'm going to bring this up at the meeting tonight and get some local direction.

Time didn't expire but the horn went off?

OOOOOOOOOK.....

Yup, and it's a timers error that <b>ISN'T</b> correctable under any rule that I know of. That means that the horn went off before the ball was in the air.

Again, if you know any rule(s) that will negate that, please cite it/them.

(Ok JR, let me try...you go have a donut or somethin'.)

The "elimination of lag time" is only applicable if you have "definite information relative to the time involved". Definite information has to do with the specific amount of time, not just the fact that you "definitely" know the whistle blew before the horn sounded.

Realistically, I'm probably not going to have a view of clock at the exact moment I blow that whistle - my focus will be on those players. I'm going to need to rely on my partners to give me that information. If one of them comes to me and tells me "There was .4 on the clock when your whistle blew", then great, we can add that back on the clock. But we cannot add back time because we "thought" there was .4 left, or because "there should've been" .4 left. That's not definitive information. See the difference?

It is irrelevant. He could take 20 seconds to release the shot (if he could maintain continuous motion that long). If the foul occurs at 0.4, the clock should stop at 0.4. Once the clock is stopped (or should have stopped), the amount of time it takes to complete the try is not an issue.

#1 & #2, the horn didn't sound legally and time didn't legally expire. While we can't correct the time if we don't know how much, that doesn't automatically kill the shot. If what you were saying were true, the timer could push the horn button with 0.5 seconds left to kill a last second shot by the opponents....if the sounding of the horn is what kills the shot.

The horn and time expiring only kill the shot when they occur legally.

Let's try this situation:

A1 dribbling past half court jumps as the clock is at 1.2, is fouled at 1.1 hangs in the air (can you hang for 1.1? at least in this play you can) till the clock says 0:00.0 and the horn sounds. He/she than release the shot and it goes in.

Under the lag time rule of last year, we can put 1.1 back on the clock, as it didn't stop in the required 1 second. Is the arguement that the shot can't count because the horn sounded to end the period? I don't think that would have been the old interpretation. The horn sounding was due to a timing error. Shot counts, shoot 1 free throw.

Under the new rule, we can put 1.1 back on the clock, assuming we saw the clock. Can we still argue that the shot doesn't count because the horn sounded. Again, I don't think that interpretation is accurate as the horn is sounding due to a timing error. Thus the shot counts, shoot 1 free throw.

Assuming no arguments to the above (a HUGE assumption), we now get to this play. I don't have the answer, but I am fairly confident that IF we are putting time back on the clock, the shot counts. It is not relevant if he/she could complete the motion is .4 or 1.1 seconds. The clock should stop, time has not expired, the horn is to be ignored.

That's just it, though - we're only correcting the timer's error.

The elimination of "lag time" means that we can go back and put time on the clock (if we have definite knowledge, of course); it does not mean that any of the rules regarding live ball/dead ball have changed.

No offense to the fine folks of District 3, but I'm waiting until I see this on the NFHS website or in an e-mail from my local assignor.

Yabut....you don't <b>KNOW</b> that the foul occurred at 0.4. You really don't have a clue <b>when</b> the foul actually occurred. Nobody does. That's why you can't correct anything. That's slso the whole point to date.

You know it occurred while time was still on the clock.

1) Give me a rules citation that states the horn sopunded illegally. And what do you mean "if the horn is what kills the clock"? I've given the rules citations that say exactly that numerous times to date in this thread.

2) I agree. And so far, nobody has been able to cite any <b>RULE</b> that says that horn and time expired illegally. That's exactly why you have to kill the shot.

So, are you saying that if you know how much time to put on, you'll put the time on and disallow the basket?

Right, Snaqs, I agree with that too. But that doesn't mean that you can do anything about it. You can't unfortunately, unless you know exactly how much time was left on the clock.

in such a close stich put .3 or .4 -- either way even nothing will change the outcome because of .1 seconds. it would be different if we had video replay to more accurately gauge the effects of .1 seconds but we do not so all we can go on is a very close estimation. I agree that the clock should stop with the whistle -- so in such a split of time you know its under 1 second and you should have an idea of whether its under .5 or not -- from there just massage it a bit :)

Not even worth a reply....

You do know that it did occur before the buzzer. If you don't know that, you don't need to be on the floor at all. How far before the buzzer shouldn't matter. The result of the shot should be the same. Whether you fix the clock or not is a different matter.

Here is the rule: 5-8

Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an official" /><O:p></O:p>
ART. 1 . . . Signals:<O:p></O:p>
a. A foul.

If it doesn't stop in this case, it was allowed to run illegally and the horn that resulted was also not supposed to occur. I don't have the case book with me but there is a case that says the horn doesn't stop play if it sounds at an incorrect time.


By your interpretation, it seems you'd rule the ball dead if the timer pushes the horn button with 0.5 on the clock becasue the horn sounded or if the timer accidentially reset the clock to 0 before the shot was released.

The rule can't be such that it would be an advantage for the timer to be deliberately slow in the stopping of the clock....hoping the officials don't know how much time to put on the clock. If that were allowed, a home scorer could win the game for their team by manipulating the clock.

The result of the shot is the same. There are no rules extant that you can use to negate rules 6-7-6&7- and EXCEPTION(c).

You still can't change the facts that the horn went <b>before</b> the ball was in the air <b>and</b> you can't put time back on the clock.

1) It doesn't matter when you look up that case play or not. That horn has got absolutely nothing to do with the horn that ends a period. If you can't put time back up on the clock, then the horn ending the period did <b>not</b> sound at an incorrect time. Apples and kumquats.

2) Um, no, I'm not saying anything at all except commenting on exactly what the original post stated. I haven't commented on any other different situations and I don't plan to. This one is headache enough. And....please don't try to put words into <b>my</b> mouth to further <b>your</b> argument.:)

3) Again, I'm not giving you or anybody else my own personal like or dislike of this situation. I'm just commenting on it from a strict rules basis.....and I'm also wondering how I'd respond if a complaint came in from the <b>other</b> coach who had maybe lost a game because an official counted a basket and put time back on the clock without any rules basis to do so. You tell me....how would you answer that complaint, Camron? Maybe I'm wrong philosophically, but I always thought being "fair" went both ways.

Yes.

For the record, I actually prefer the interpretation put forth on the district 3 website, but I believe that it is not supported by rule.

Perhaps my favorite part of all the books is on page 10 in the rulebook.
The Intent and Purpose of the Rules. Among other things, it says ".....to know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may be intelligently applied in each play situation."
I personally do not believe that 5-10-1 was written with the intent of chasing down tenths of a second, not even in a game ending situation.
Sports officiating is, and for the forseeable future will be, subject to the human element. (good thing, or we're all out of a job) The whistle blows, the timer hears it, the thumb flips a switch. How long does all this take?
I have no idea. But this is the normal sequence of events. This is the way it is supposed to be. The high school game as we know it is not designed in such a way that the clock stops instantaneously with the whistle.

5-10-1: The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer.......

Anything that involves .4 tenths of a seconds, (an arbitrary amount that was mentioned earlier) is not obvious. There was a foul on a try, but time expired before the release. So be it. Shoot the free throws. The basket doesn't count.

Nothing was "permitted to develop which may lead to placing a player at a disadvantage not intended by a rule."**


**The Intent and Purpose of the Rules (again)

Forget tenths of seconds. It is obvious to the official that the whistle was blown prior to the clock expiring. It could have been ten seconds before, or .4 seconds before, but either way it is obvious unless we have a deaf official.

Foul-Buzzer-Shot and you do NOT know the time left
 

[QUOTE=JTRICE]http://www.district3hoops.com/index....s/thisweek.htm


I have read all this discussion on this situation. Just another note that the District 3 director said that this is not his interpretation but a NFHS interpretation. So.... expect to see it soon on the NFHS web site.

Secondly, if you look at the District 3 web site again you will notice that it DOES say what to do if the three officials are not sure how much time to put back on the clock but that they are sure it was foul-buzzer-shot. What you are supposed to do (according to NFHS) is to count the basket and shoot the foul shot with noone lined up on the lane.

[QUOTE=JTRICE]"Foul shot"- singular. Iow, they are still saying to count the basket even though the ball wasn't in the air when the horn went. Again, that ruling goes directly against the language of rule 6-7-7&EXCEPTION(c).

I think that I'll wait until I see a case play posted on the NFHS website stating that. At that time, I will concede that I am wrong. Until that time, I still don't believe that there is any rules backing extant to count the basket, and I certainly haven't seen any rules backing posted here to date that would cause me to re-think my position.

[QUOTE=Jurassic Referee]
I'm with you on this one, JR. I see no need to concede that we are wrong no matter what comes down in the future. This is a good and logical argument that everyone makes about what is reasonable and how is should be and "I know the whistle came before the horn," and all the rest. But, for the time being, as you have so vigorously pointed out,
it is not supported by rule.

By the way, has anybody ever seen this actually happen?
Try starts...foul....buzzer....release. I have not.

I had this play in a Jr. High game earlier this year. The only exception is that the shot didn't go in. It made everything easy. Foul and whistle definitely beat the buzzer, but not by much. We didn't add any time as neither my partner nor I had a chance to OBSERVE the clock for definite knowledge. My best guess, .1 could have been put back on the clock. Being that it was a guess, we didn't put any time up, and we shot 2 free throws.

Same exact thing happened to me as well this year.

In a D1 or a pro game?

Just wondering if the rules were the same in both of the levels that you're working.

Casebook Play
 

In looking up a question Juulie had, I came across this gem:

6.7 Situation C: Under what circumstances does the ball remain live when a foul occurs just prior to the ball being in flight during a try or tap?

Ruling: The ball would ordinarily become dead at once, but it remains live if the foul is by the defense, and this foul occurs after A1 has started the try or tap for goal and time does not expire before the ball is in flight. The foul by the defense may be personal or technical and the exception to the rule applies to field goal tries and taps and free-throw tries. (4-11; 4-41-1)

So we return to the question, "Did time expire?" If you know the whistle came first, you know you have a timing error. Thus time did not expire. What to do now is the next question. If you know how much time should be back on the clock, it's easy. If not, things get confusing.

Yes, time did expire, and I believe that this case play indicates as such.

The casebook authors clearly realized that, sometimes, the clock cannot be stopped. If they expected the clock to be stopped perfectly here, then they would not have included the part about time expiring because it would be moot!

Frankly, this case has nothing to do with whether lag time has been changed or whether the timer made a mistake. The ball must leave the hand before the horn signalling the end of the period sounds. Period.