The only way this makes sense with the removal of lag time is if you have the following order of events:
A1 begins habitual motion for shot.
Foul by B1.
Buzzer.
Whistle and shot released in either order.

If the whistle comes before the buzzer, then time has not expired before the release.

If the whistle comes after the buzzer, then cancel the basket and shoot two (or three) free throws.

I came very close to seeing this in a ms game a week ago. The shot was released before the horn, though; but not by much. It went in.

Did you read my other play, player fouled at 1.1, hangs through the buzzer and than releases? Would you still feel that time expired? Even under the old lag time rule? I wouldn't. This is a timing error. I understand the play in the casebook may not agree, but it appears to be in contradiction to the new rule. To this official's eyes, it seems they forgot to check the case book when them implemented the new rule.

Absolutely - whether a quick release, or whether the player flies through the air via some anti-gravity device (shucks - even if for 11.1 seconds), the ball must be released before the horn sounds in order to count.

As to whether or not the case book seems to disagree with the rules, maybe it does (EDIT: the casebook can't actually contradict the rules - we go by what the casebook says). However (to paraphrase Rummy), we ref the games with the casebook we have, not with the casebook we might want.

Non-Timing Example
 

A1 has the ball and begins his habitual motion preceeding his shot. B1 fouls A1 and the whistle is sounded. A1 then travels, releases the ball, and it successfully goes through the hoop.

What's your call?

Mark, I disagree that its not supported by rule(w/ a reservation, I'm assuming that all rule sections quoted by others are accurate, no books here at work)


6-7 DEAD BALL "The ball becomes dead or remains dead when:
Art. 6 ... Time expires for a quarter or extra period (see exception a below)
Art. 7 ... A foul, other than player- or team-control occurs (see exceptions a,b,c below)

EXCEPTION: The ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends, or until the airborn shooter returns to the floor, when:
a. Article 5, 6, or 7 occurs while a try or tap for a field goal is in flight.
b. Article 5 or 7 occurs while a try for a free throw is in flight.
c. Article 7 occurs by any opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for goal (is in the act of shooting) before the foul occurred, provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight. The trying motion must be continuous and begins after the ball comes to rest in the player's hand(s) on a try or touches the hand(s) on a tap, and is completed when the ball is clearly in glight. The trying motion may include arm, foot or body movements used by the player when throwing the ball at his/her basket."

The here is clearly stating that if a foul occurs, whistle, then buzzer, then shot that the ball will be considered a dead ball. Penalize the foul, but you cannot count the basket. The only exception to this would be 5-10-1 where the official has definite knowledge of the time. That states:

"The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock."


To me, the bolded sections state that if we put time back on the clock because of definite knowledge, then time has not expired. Therefore, if time has not expired, then we must count the basket even if it was released after the horn.

Zak (and others):

If we have the exception (that you claim), then why do both the rulebook and the casebook state that the ball needs to be in the air before time expires?

QED.

Two reasons. First, because the case play is a hold-over from previous years; when lag time was a factor.

Second, because time may expire on this play if the whistle comes after the horn. There is no provision for putting time back on the clock between a foul/violation and the official's delayed whistle.

But time hasn't expired if we have definite knowledge that time was on the clock when the whistle has been blown. What casebook play are you refering to?

Time Expiring
 

New Play: A1 fouls B1 with 22 seconds on the clock. B1 is not in the act of shooting, but is entitled to bonus free throws. Additionally, B trails by 3 points. The time keeper fails to stop the clock and the horn sounds. Has time expired, or do we shoot the free throws?

In so many of the previous examples, officials are claiming that the clock has expired because the horn sounded. If so, we're going home. B can't catch up with only 2 possible free throws. Of course I'll never work for that assignor again. The obvious answer is that time did not expire. Put time back on the clock and award B the 1-1 (or 2 if in double-bonus) free throws.

A timing error is a timing error and can be corrected with definite knowledge. The only question from the original play is when the whistle and the horn are so close that we may not know exactly what time to put on the clock. Either way, time has not expired.

Hmmmm....according to the rules cited already in this thread, time sureasheck has expired. If you can't put time back on the clock, how can possibly say there there <b>is</b> time on the clock? Can you cite any rules that say differently btw?

D@mmit! JR's right. If we can't put time on the clock; time has expired. If time has expired, then the basket can't count.

I really hate posting this.

This is getting ridiculous.

Here is how I am handling this in my game

If I have a foul, and my whistle is CLEARLY before the buzzer, and the player CLEARLY releases the ball after the buzzer, then I am counting the basket.

I will get together with my crew, and we ARE putting time on the clock. Even if it is 0.1, something is going on the clock. I have DEFINITE KNOWLEDGE that there was a timing error and I am going to fix it the best I can.

"But lpneck," the crowd cried (or at least 2 or 3 of you,) "how can you possibly do that if none of you actually SAW the clock at 0.1? Maybe the clock should have been stopped at 0.2! You don't have definite knowledge!"

Good question. Let me respond with a question. There are 55.4 seconds left in the game. Team A has a throw-in in the back court. They throw the ball in and you get to 3 on your count, and they throw the ball out of bounds. The timer forgets to stop the clock on your whistle and when you look up, the clock says 47.8. None of us saw the clock at the moment the whistle blew.

What do you put the clock at? I put it at 52.4. Anyone disagree? Good.

But hang on a second... how do you KNOW that the clock should be at 52.4? Maybe it should be at 52.5? Maybe the whistle killed it a little after my count got to three and it should be 52.0?

Since I don't know EXACTLY how many tenths of a second should be on the clock, are any of you who are taking the position that I can't put at least 0.1 back on the clock in the last second shot situation going to take the consistent position that you can't fix the game clock here, either?

Sigh.....

I hate to be the one to tell you, but it's really not a matter of any of us disagreeing with you. It's a matter of the NFHS disagreeing with you. They're the ones that are telling you that you can't do what you want to do i.e.- guess at what time you're putting back on the clock. Sez so right in the rulebook they published. In rule 5-10 to be exact.

I could care less how you handle it personally. That's up to you. I just want to point out that, until the FED publishes something different, the <b>rules</b> say that you are wrong.

It is, JR, because it's exactly how I would handle it. There's no way in HELL I would disallow such a basket. If my whistle goes off before the horn, it's a timing error. I am going to have definite knowledge and I am going to put time back on the clock. End of story.

Anything else is cheating the team with the ball. Common sense and fair play still stand for something.

I said it wasn't worth a reply because there is a very explicit rule--rule 5-10-- that says that you just simply can't do anything like deecee suggested. If you want to ignore that rule, hey, be my guest.

To be quote honest, I personally don't really give a damn how anyone handles it, Rich. I'm just saying how the current <b>rules</b> say that it <b>must</b> be handled- imo. If anybody can come up with something out of the current rules and case book that says anything different, hey, my mind could be changed awful easy. Unfortunately, there hasn't been one rules citation posted in this thread yet giving another way to handle it that doesn't go against the rules that I cited.

Please note that I didn't say how I would personally handle this situation either in this thread. Again, I'm simply disagreeing with the conclusion that given in the original post of this thread. I think that the answer given out in that post can not be justified under existing rules. Twp anyway.

5-10-2: If the referee determines that the clock was not started or stopped properly, or if the clock did not run, an official's o**** or other official information can be used to make a correction.

The rules state that your count is definite knowledge.

But it's still a legitimate case play! If Congress wanted to change a law, but forgets to actually propose an ammendment to a bill, you don't just say "well, a few other laws have changed, so this one has, too."

Second, I believe that the plays have nothing to do with lag time. If they did, then there would be two or three parts to each situation - one where the whistle blew with more than 1.0 second on the clock, one where the whistle blew with 0.9 or less on the clock, and one where the ref blew the whistle then the ref looked up at the clock.

One more casebook play
 

Found this one prepping for my games this evening:

5.6.2 Situation D: Team A trails 60-59 with just a few seconds remaining in the fourth quarter of play. A1 is fouled in the act of shooting by B1 but time expires before the ball is in flight. A1 is awarded two free throws.

Every case play I have seen states that if time expires before the ball is in the air, we don't count the basket. Show me something to the contrary and, like Jurassic, I'll gladly change my mind. (I've been saying for years that this interpretation is how the rule should read, but it's just not the case.

That has nothing to do with this discussion. But the call is a foul, waive the basket if made, 2 FTs. If it were any other way, a player fouled while trying to shoot could hang onto the ball, take 3-4 steps closer to the basket and still score.

Precisely.

We don't allow extra steps just because A1 is fouled on the try.

We don't allow team A to goaltend or commit BI just because A1 is fouled on the try.

So why, then, would we ignore the legal sounding of the buzzer just because A1 is fouled on the try?

Much emphasis is put on being consistent in making a call throughout the game, from start to finish. If it's a foul in the first quarter, it's a foul in the last 2 minutes, etc. Following that line of reasoning, according to some arguments in this thread, there is a "timing error" every time the whistle blows. Should we look quickly at the clock to try to read the time on every whistle? It would be easier most of the game, without the tenths showing.
So, conceivably, every time a travel is called at 4:52 remaining in the third quarter, we may need to reset the clock to 4:53.

Read my post above (#111). Due to the logic given in the case play, I've flipped sides on this. If we don't have definite knowledge of how much time to put back on the clock, then we can't put any back on. By rule, time has expired. When did it expire? Just before the shot was released.

I agree with JR that by rule, you can't count the hoop unless you are able to legally put time back on the clock. If one official looks up at the clock at the whistle and sees time, then we can put the time on and score the hoop; because time hasn't actually expired.

Adam

I'll need to check, but I believe the Fed has specifically stated that this rule change is designed for end-of-quarter scenarios. They're higher profile, and a timing error that goes unfixed can actually decide a game. So, by rule, you could look up and fix the clock at 4:53 in the first quarter. However, you would be spending a lot of time working ms ball wondering why you can't get that varsity break. However, ignoring a 1 second difference with 6 seconds left may have the same effect.

Where do you check? Specifically what is the change and when was it changed? So far the only thing I have read about a change is at Catawba River, and I don't know where that is.

From NFHS.ORG, the comments on rules revisions:
Not exactly what I was looking for. Note, however, the mention of reaction time being no longer needed as well as lag time. Tomorrow at work, I'll keep looking for the comments I remember regarding the end of quarter/game intent behind this change.

(edit) I need a break. I just found it, at the page linked to in the OP, with the interpretation we've been debating so viciously. :)

Consider the following situation:

A, down 1 with 2:00 to go in overtime has the ball for a throwin. The ball is thrown in (the clock starts properly). A, wanting to hold the ball for the last shot has A2 hold the ball near midcourt with no defenders within 6ft.

After approximately 8-10 seconds, the horn sounds as a result of the timer who is with team B accidentially (or deliberately) hitting a button that resets the clock to 0:01.

No official was looking at the clock because there was no reason to be looking at the clock at that moment. Since the the ball was in the frontcourt, there was no closely guarded situation, and nearly two minutes should have been on the clock, no official is tracking the clock.

By the rules as interpreted by Jurrassic, et.al., since no official knows the exact time that needs to be on the clock, no correction can be made....no time could be put back on the clock. The game is over. A loses.

Does this make any sense at all? If you are to interpret the rules so literally, you'd have to let the game end with B winning in this situation. This is a case of time running out (on the clock anyway) and the horn sounding when it did so when no correction can, by rule, be made. Do you really believe that this is the intent of the timing correction rule? The clock says 0:00, the horn sounded, no official knew the exact time.

Now I know every single one of you out there that does any decent level of ball is going to put time back on the clock in this case...knowing the spirit and intent of the rule, not the letter. You're not going to end a game 2 minutes early because of a timer error.

Now, take this to the last second shot. It is the intent of the rules that the clock stop on the whistle and that the shooter be allowed to complete the shot if fouled while in the act of shooting. The whole point about the ball becoming dead when the horn sounds is based on the expectation that time expires properly, not in error.

I am going to chime in here...

1) As I have heard from several referees, this is the ONLY PLAY IN TOWN. repeat ONLY! Of all the plays in the game this is the one that has to be right. if you dont get it right, everybody and their dog with a video tape will complain and they will be right. Unfortunately no matter how hard we quote the rule book and attempt to justify that the ruling is wrong, the ruling is exactly right.

The ball is shot, the whistle blew, The clock did not stop on the whistle (this is no different than any other paly where the clock does not stop on a foul or violation)The horn going off , in my mind, is irrelevant.

We have got to get this play right. If I am on this floor, I think I would be blowing the whistle and making sure I pick up the clock.

2) No where in the rule book does it state that definite knowledge means staring at the clock. You have other senses you can use. I can tell yo that I had definite knowledge that the whistle blew before the clock, I know plenty of officials that can differentiate between 1 second and 1 tenth and most places in between.

3) Long before the use of video at the sideline the NBA has set the precedent and used this for years. No matter what you think of the league, when NFHS or NCAA follows something that NBA has used for years, we end up using thier interpretations because they have been thru it. NFHS has not had an original thought (except for maybe the fashion police crap) on a basketball rule for years. NFHS is always the last one to adopt changes in rules that have trickled down...

1) New (this year) NFHS case book play 5.10.1SitC says that definite knowledge <b>is</b> looking at the clock when you blow your whistle. Other case plays link definite knowledge to knowing how much time is on the clock when a play starts and the clock doesn't, and having an officia's count going when the clock was started/not started improperly. That all ties all in with the language of R5-10.

If the shooter is fouled with 0.2/0.3 seconds on the clock just as he's gathered the ball, are you telling me that it's the intent of the rules to allow that shooter to completely finish his shooting motion after that(step, bring his arms up, maybe double-pump and then shoot), even though that completion of the shooting motion after the foul might take a lot longer than 0.2/0.3 seconds? I can't agree with that.

Sorry, Camron, but it isn't that simplistic imo. It would be nice if it was...but it just isn't.

I can't speak for JR, but my interpretation is that you can't count the basket whether you were looking at the clock or not.

Imagine telling a coach "sorry, buddy - you lost because I wasn't looking at the clock." Not a pretty sight, nor is there any rule support for it.

Who wrote the interpretation in this link? With all due respect to the good people at the Catawba River Association, if I hadn't read it here, where would I have heard the interpretation. The books that we all have still say that the ball must be released prior to the buzzer.

There is rule support if you can put time back on the clock. We are specifically allowed to put time back with definite knowledge. Time can only expire ONCE per period. If I'm putting .4 back on the clock (due to my observing .4 on the clock when the whistle blew), time has not expired. If I don't have that knowledge we have an issue. If you argue that the official can't count the basket, even though he/she corrected the time, I'm not sure why you'd ever correct the time on the clock.

I know. That was my admission that the comments weren't definitive.

I can't find a reference to the buzzer or horn in the applicable rule (6-7?)and I think that is where the difference of opinion is on this. I think that buzzer or horn doesn't equal expiration of time if we have definite knowledge that time hasn't expired and we put time back on the clock.

The case play says that the ball remains live after the whistle unless the shot isn’t released before time expires. If you’re putting time back on the clock, then time hasn’t expired for the quarter. If I can put time on the clock, I’m counting the bucket.

If his team loses, it’s because the kid couldn’t make the free throws.
“Coach, we have a shooting foul, and we’ll be shooting free throws. The shot was released after time expired, so the basket doesn’t count.”

6-7 exception c: .....provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight.

5-6-2: Each quarter or extra period ends when the signal sounds indicating time has expired.

I'm looking for the NFHS rulebook answer to this question, it slightly differs from the original scenario:

last second shot (one functioning scoreboard/team B leads Team A by 2 points/2-man crew (or 2-person if Juulie is working))

1) B1 smacks A1's arm
2) whistle
3) release
4) horn
5) ball enters basket
6) both officials know shot was released before horn but neither has definite knowledge of exact time

Both the foul and the release came before the expiration of time, therefore you have a tie score and A1 shoots one free throw to determine whether we'll need OT or not.

And no time posted on clock, right? I'm not disagreeing, just want affirmation.

Also, any effective words that I could pass along to Team B coach as to why time is not being put back on clock but we are counting the basket? :(

It is that simplistic. Fundamental basketball rules state

Rule 6-7

Ball becomes dead when time expires for the quarter. Time had not expired because whistle was before the horn. This was absolute

Ball does not become dead until try or tap ends

The defense was stupid enough to foul and stop the clock here. It gives the guy a chance to finish his motion. If they hadnt have fouled and stopped the clock the player may or may not have gotten the shot off, but since they did he gets everything else the rules allow.

Go back and reread the interpretation that was given for this play


It specifically stated that there was whistle then horn. There was no question. IT becomes a timing mistake, basket scores and free-throw is shot. The rest of the ruling is whether or not there should be time put back on the clock and if the FT has someone on the lane. If there is definite knowledge reset the clock, if not shoot the FT's and be done.

Time has not expired while the ball was in the hand. We cannot reset the clock because of no definite knowledge. These are two separate and distinct acts...and two separate rules!

I agree with Cameron on his play... There is also some common sense that has to come into play.

If there is 1:05 left in the 4th and operator hits reset instead of the horn and it now shows 8:00 to go in the fourth. I dont have definite knowledge so we have to go with the eight minutes because the scorer did not note the times of the time outs... or fouls.

This is the only paly in town. We have to be precise ad get this right

Not unless you have definite knowledge.

"Coach, pray that he misses and you get a shot at OT." :p

I dunno, "the shot was released before the horn sounded" seems to work for me as to why the basket was counted. For no time going on the clock, you just have to admit that neither ref saw how much time should be left. (If he complains, tell him that his team shouldn't have fouled. Of course, A might get 2 more FT's to determine whether or not you have an overtime!)

It sure is that simple. The defense stops the clock with the foul. That gives the shooter all the time it takes to complete the shooting motion. The fact that you've got a slow (homer) timer shouldn't change that.

Fyi
 

This is the question I sent to our state association and the response (evidently straight from NFHS and Mary S)


The following situation was discussed by a few fellow officials and I would like some clarification from you if possible.

With the elimination of lag time, has the following situation changed from prior years.

A player is fouled in the act of shooting with .5 (or whatever time) seconds left and does not release the ball prior to the horn sounding on a successful try. An official glances at the clock and has definite knowledge that time had indeed not expired. Can we score the basket because time had not actually expired? Would the interpretation change if the officials had definite knowledge that the whistle sounded prior to the expiration of time but did not have definite knowledge of the exact time to be placed back on the clock?



This is quite a complicated situation. We do have two rules that seem to conflict one another ....always have in this situation really....but time expiring before the release of the try does take precedent......the no lag-time situation can make a difference.

Let me start by saying....you almost have to see the play to make a ruling. If the whistle for the foul and the horn happen almost simultaneously with each other, then you can't count the subsequent release and goal because the ball is actually dead (Rule 6-7-6 and 6-7-7 Exception c, also see 5-6-2 Exception 3).

If there is an obvious gap between the whistle for the foul and the horn, then yes, we can consider that a timer's mistake and put time back on the clock and we could count the subsequent release and goal....because the clock SHOULD have stopped, which means we never would have had a horn to make the ball dead. Make sense?

I am going to have the committee look at this play in April. We need some direction from them on this and make sure the book is clear.

....because the clock SHOULD have stopped, which means we never would have had a horn to make the ball dead. Make sense?

and...

....I am going to have the committee look at this play in April. We need some direction from them on this and make sure the book is clear.

*****Sounds like a perfectly clear and muddled response all at the same time. If they are serious about wanting officials to call it this way they need to let everybody know and put it up on the website. But until then.....

It only makes sense if you know exactly how much time to put back on the clock (said he, continuing to beat a dead horse).:)

I guess we'll find out which way to go next year.

Thanks Zak.

I would love to see ANY official with a digital stop watch, make the clock stop on an exact tenth increment every time. I dare you to try. Everybody is requiring the “knowledge of the exact time of the violation prior to the horn” in order to put time back on the clock. When we are talking about tenths of a second increments, aren’t we really making an educated guess EVERY time we put time back on the clock?

"Everybody" is the NFHS rulesmakers. Not the posters in this thread. You knew that, right?

No educated guesses are allowed. You can put the exact time that the official observed on the clock when he looked at it back on the clock- in tenths of seconds. If the official isn't looking at the clock, an official's count or some other official information is needed before you can adjust the clock.

If you didn't look at the clock, or if you didn't have an official's count going or some other kind of official information available to you, you can't adjust the clock. Dem's the rules.

:eek: So according to that frame of mind, Every play in Every game is clearly defined in the Rules and Case Books..... You are insinuating that you have never made a rules interpretation during a game based on past experience and common sense???????? I agree with you almost all time on rules interpretations, but we will have to agree to disagree on this matter. If the whistle sounds prior to the horn sounding in a close game, I'll bet a HUGE majority of experienced, knowledgable officials will put SOMETHING back on the clock whether they know the exact time or not.

The vast majority sureasheck are. I've never had to use rule 2-3 in my life, and I doubt that I ever will.

The key is knowing the rules and then knowing how to apply them. Guessing still ain't allowed.

Time to close this beast. Its been beaten to death three times over now. ;)