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Old Tue Sep 25, 2001, 08:04am
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Hi all,

Just finished refereeing a couple of games today in Australi's equivalent to the "Sweet 16" - The Australian National University Games. No where near as importnant as the NCAA Finals, but still some good refereeing experience - especially for the new season starting in about 8 weeks.

Anyway, had two games, one guys and one girls. My partner and I (yes 2 man) had one interesting situation, and I would apprecate feedback on how you would handle it (keep in mind we use FEEBLE rules).

Team A inbounds the ball after timeout, proceeds up the court, uses approximately 15 seconds of the shot clock and then releases a shot. After the shot is released, the scorer's horn sounds, and I stop play. Basket goes in. Turns out that the timekeeper forgot to restart the game clock after the timeout. Coach B immediately demands that the basket by Team A be disqualified as the clock was not running - therefore the ball is dead.

Had my evaluator watching the game, and my partner and I also discussed this sit with him before making a ruling. We came up with two possible courses of action:

i) Cancel the basket, Coach B is correct - can't score with a dead ball, return ball to Team A and start play with inbound as if the 15 seconds never occurred.

ii) Count the basket. Ignore the extra few seconds of time played, and Team B inbounds as per normal play.


I am really keen to hear what you think, and how you would handle this (according to NCAA, NBA, High School, FIBA, or just gut instinct).

I'll post what we did, and why, in about 24 hours.

Duane Galle
http://www.Ref-Basketball.com
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Old Tue Sep 25, 2001, 08:25am
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NFHS rules plus a bit of experience as timer

(1) Count the basket - what the coach said (at least up here) about the ball being dead is BS - you can have a live ball with the clock stopped (free throw, anyone) and a dead ball with the clock running (after made basket).

(2) Let the timer know that the horn should be held until the basket is successful. In this case, you have a shot clock so there is some form of timing the play. If there wasn't, I would recommend that the timer leave the clock where it is, and use a stopwatch.
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Old Tue Sep 25, 2001, 08:27am
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Yeesh, rough situation. However, in all my knowledge, I would say count the bucket. This is, of course, assuming you had more than a few seconds remaining on the game clock.

As for the clock, you can only take time off the clock if you're aware of exactly how much ticked off, which you should be able to do by using the shot clock and some subtraction.

Of course, the best way to handle this is always peek at the clock as soon as the ball becomes live to make sure it's a runnin'.
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Old Tue Sep 25, 2001, 09:09am
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Lightbulb FWIW - my guess

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Oz Referee
Team A inbounds the ball after timeout, proceeds up the court, uses approximately 15 seconds of the shot clock and then releases a shot. After the shot is released, the scorer's horn sounds, and I stop play. Basket goes in. Turns out that the timekeeper forgot to restart the game clock after the timeout. Coach B immediately demands that the basket by Team A be disqualified as the clock was not running - therefore the ball is dead.

We are allowed to disregard the horn at our choosing.



i) Cancel the basket, Coach B is correct - can't score with a dead ball, return ball to Team A and start play with inbound as if the 15 seconds never occurred.


Our ball would have been live; clock working, or not, does not affect the status of the ball.

ii) Count the basket. Ignore the extra few seconds of time played, and Team B inbounds as per normal play.

Run the known time off the clock, count the basket, and play from there.

mick
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Old Tue Sep 25, 2001, 09:10am
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I agree with Mark & Dan. I'll only add the usual
gratuitous remarks about game management, control, etc etc
(in other words, how could you have *not* noticed the
clock was not going? how could you have blown the
play dead while the ball was in the air?). So,
what you've got here is a great learning experience. What
did your evaluator say?

BTW, I agree with mick too!
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Old Wed Sep 26, 2001, 03:14am
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Mr Technical

I sure hope you cancelled the basket, under FIBA rules you can't score a basket with a dead ball unless expressly stated otherwise (eg. the ball becomes live when in the hands of the free throw shooter).

The rules are there to provide guidelines as to how the game should be conducted, not to deflect blame away from the stupidity of the scoretable, so unfortunately I see this as the correct scenario to resume the game.

Basket is cancelled, Team A is awarded a throw in at the point nearest to the position of the ball when the error was detected, full shot clock with no amendment to the game clock.
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Old Wed Sep 26, 2001, 04:58am
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Talking Re: Mr Technical - What we actually did

Quote:
Originally posted by irunlikeagirl
I sure hope you cancelled the basket, under FIBA rules you can't score a basket with a dead ball unless expressly stated otherwise (eg. the ball becomes live when in the hands of the free throw shooter).

The rules are there to provide guidelines as to how the game should be conducted, not to deflect blame away from the stupidity of the scoretable, so unfortunately I see this as the correct scenario to resume the game.

Basket is cancelled, Team A is awarded a throw in at the point nearest to the position of the ball when the error was detected, full shot clock with no amendment to the game clock.
OK, I agree, you can't score with a dead ball. However, as we understood it at the time (and I still do), it is the referee that makes the ball live, not the starting of the game clock.

So, we awarded the basket, left the time on the clock as it stood due to the fact that we were not completely confident that the shot clock had started on time. Our basic reasoning for awarding the points was that as neither coach, nor any of the players or fans, had made any comments about the clock not running, then it was safe to assume that the defense had not been disadvantaged. Therefore it would have been unfair to penalise the offence for a clerical error.

Our decision was backed by both my evaluator, and several other officials at the game. Even the coach of Team B agreed with our ruling once we explain the reasoning behind it (although he would still have prefered us to cancel the bucket)

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Old Wed Sep 26, 2001, 03:52pm
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Old Wed Sep 26, 2001, 04:00pm
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In FIBA, if you cannot score on a dead ball, is the ball dead in the case of a last second shot? That is if while the ball is in the air after being shot, the horn goes off and the ball goes in. Does it count? If it counts then you must count the basket in your case. From what I have read you did a good job.
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Old Wed Sep 26, 2001, 04:07pm
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Re: Re: Mr Technical - What we actually did

Quote:
Originally posted by Oz Referee

...
So, we awarded the basket, left the time on the clock as it stood due to the fact that we were not completely confident that the shot clock had started on time....

Duane,

I'm gonna disagree here. You don't have to assume the
shot clock was started correctly in order to use it as
a reference unless you suspected it was never
stopped. Here's what I mean: If you use a 35 second
shot clock and it shows 20 seconds you can be certain
that at least 15 seconds elapsed. If the shot
clock started late then you still are OK in taking the
15 seconds off the game clock.
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