Need your help on POI vs. AP

[Mark Padgett]

I'm preparing a rules packet for the refs who work our kids rec league. Some of them are HS kids in their first or second year of officiating. I thought it would be helpful to them if I provided a matrix of when you use POI vs. when you use the AP arrow.

I would like to have a header of POI with bullet points under it such as "inadvertant whistle during team control" and the same for AP with points such as "all jump balls except to start game and OT".

Since this is a volunteer position and I only have so much time, I thought I might get some help from the wonderful, magnificent, incredible people on this board. Especially if I suck up like I just did.

Thanks in advance.

[Scrapper1]

POI is used for all double fouls, simultaneous fouls, inadvertant whistles, and correcting correctable errors. You always go to the POI in these situations.

Sometimes the arrow is the POI; like when one of the above things happens and there's no team control or infraction or basket or end of period involved.

Not sure if that helps or not.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

POI is used for all double fouls, simultaneous fouls, inadvertant whistles, and correcting correctable errors. You always go to the POI in these situations.

That's not quite completely accurate. It doesn't hold true for correcting a merited FT with no change of team possession since the error was made(2-10-6). A more accurate statement would be "correcting some correctable errors".

[Ed Maeder]

Also not true on all double fouls. When an unsuccessful shot is in flight and a double foul is called, both players are charged with a foul and the alternating-possession procedure is used. Need to be careful with the words all and always.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Ed Maeder

Also not true on all double fouls. When an unsuccessful shot is in flight and a double foul is called, both players are charged with a foul and the alternating-possession procedure is used. Need to be careful with the words all and always.

That goes under the "soemtimes the arrow is the POI" statement that Scrapper used.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

It doesn't hold true for correcting a merited FT with no change of team possession since the error was made

Fair enough. I should have said "correcting a correctable error, as in 2-10-6", which is how the POI rule actually reads. Good catch.

[Kelvin green]

Originally Posted by Ed Maeder

Also not true on all double fouls. When an unsuccessful shot is in flight and a double foul is called, both players are charged with a foul and the alternating-possession procedure is used. Need to be careful with the words all and always.

Ed...

go over your defintiions again

4-36-1 specifically states that POI is a method of resuming play due to accidental whistle, a correctable error under 2-10-6, a double personal, double technical, or simultaneous foul.

POI is always used for those situations.

Article 2 then explains how to put ball in play, a throw-in, a freethrow -or throw-in if entitled, alternating possession when point of interruptin has no team control, no goal, infraction nor end of quarter is involved.

POI is absolute for those, no exceptions just the way it is administered.

We need to stop confusing ourselves...

Alternating possession is used when there is a "jump ball situation"-

POI is used for all the others and the arrow is one way of putting ball into play when there is no team control.

[Mark Padgett]

Ya' know, I'm kind of surprised no one said that POI is that yucchy Hawaiian dipping stuff and AP is a news wire service.

Oh wait. That probably would have been me. Never mind.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

I thought I might get some help from the wonderful, magnificent, incredible people on this board. Especially if I suck up like I just did.

"Sucking up" isn't your strong suit, Mark. Although I know some people who think .... no, don't want to give anyone any ammo...

[Lotto]

NCAA 4-51 lists (all?) the situations that lead to resumption of play by PoI. I don't use Fed rules, so I can't speak to the differences.

a. An official’s inadvertent whistle, as in Rules 4-37 and 7-5.21.
b. An interrupted game, as in 5-4.
c. A correctable error, as in 2-11.4.
d. A double personal or simultaneous personal foul, as in Rules 4-26.10
and 4-26.16.
e. Any technical foul(s).

(In NCAA-W, a T for an excessive TO carries loss of possession. There are a few other small variances for implementation of the PoI procedure.)

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by Kelvin green

Ed...

go over your defintiions again

4-36-1 specifically states that POI is a method of resuming play due to accidental whistle, a correctable error under 2-10-6, a double personal, double technical, or simultaneous foul.

POI is always used for those situations.

Article 2 then explains how to put ball in play, a throw-in, a freethrow -or throw-in if entitled, alternating possession when point of interruptin has no team control, no goal, infraction nor end of quarter is involved.

POI is absolute for those, no exceptions just the way it is administered.

We need to stop confusing ourselves...

Alternating possession is used when there is a "jump ball situation"-

POI is used for all the others and the arrow is one way of putting ball into play when there is no team control.

I know that is a NCAA-M rule, checking FED!!!!

[IREFU2]

Here is your answer, on Double Fouls when the ball is in flight, you go to the AP.

ART. 3 . . . Alternating-possession throw-ins shall be from the out-of-bounds spot nearest to where the ball was located. An alternating-possession throw-in shall result when:
a. A held ball occurs.
b. The ball goes out of bounds, as in 7-3.
c. A simultaneous free-throw violation occurs.
d. A live ball lodges between the backboard and ring or comes to rest on the flange, unless a free throw or throw-in follows.
e. The ball becomes dead when neither team is in control and no goal, infraction nor end of a quarter/extra period is involved.
f. Opponents commit simultaneous goaltending or basket-interference violations.
g. Double personal, double technical or simultaneous fouls occur and the point of interruption is such that neither team is in control and no goal, infraction, nor end of quarter/extra period is involved.
NOTE: If the alternating-possession procedure has not been established, the jump ball shall be between the two players involved in the center restraining circle.
ART. 4 . . . The direction of the possession arrow is reversed immediately after an alternating-possession throw-in ends. An alternating-possession throw-in ends when the throw-in ends or when the throw-in team violates.
ART. 5 . . . The opportunity to make an alternating-possession throw-in is lost if the throw-in team violates. If either team fouls during an alternating-possession throw-in, it does not cause the throw-in team to lose the possession arrow.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

Here is your answer, on Double Fouls when the ball is in flight, you go to the AP.

ART. 3 . . . Alternating-possession throw-ins shall be from the out-of-bounds spot nearest to where the ball was located. An alternating-possession throw-in shall result when:
a. A held ball occurs.
b. The ball goes out of bounds, as in 7-3.
c. A simultaneous free-throw violation occurs.
d. A live ball lodges between the backboard and ring or comes to rest on the flange, unless a free throw or throw-in follows.
e. The ball becomes dead when neither team is in control and no goal, infraction nor end of a quarter/extra period is involved.
f. Opponents commit simultaneous goaltending or basket-interference violations.
g. Double personal, double technical or simultaneous fouls occur and the point of interruption is such that neither team is in control and no goal, infraction, nor end of quarter/extra period is involved.
NOTE: If the alternating-possession procedure has not been established, the jump ball shall be between the two players involved in the center restraining circle.
ART. 4 . . . The direction of the possession arrow is reversed immediately after an alternating-possession throw-in ends. An alternating-possession throw-in ends when the throw-in ends or when the throw-in team violates.
ART. 5 . . . The opportunity to make an alternating-possession throw-in is lost if the throw-in team violates. If either team fouls during an alternating-possession throw-in, it does not cause the throw-in team to lose the possession arrow.

Say what?

You may want to glance at (g). That's the applicable one.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

Here is your answer, on Double Fouls when the ball is in flight, you go to the AP.

g. Double personal, double technical or simultaneous fouls occur and the point of interruption is such that neither team is in control and no goal, infraction, nor end of quarter/extra period is involved.

But notice that if the ball goes in the basket, then there is a goal involved. In that case, we don't need the AP arrow.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

"Sucking up" isn't your strong suit, Mark. Although I know some people who think .... no, don't want to give anyone any ammo...

Hey - any more stuff like that and I'll schedule you to work a ten game shift of 3rd grade girls with ABC.