The Official Forum - Working With a Homer

The Official Forum (https://forum.officiating.com/)

- Basketball (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/)

- - Working With a Homer (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/29629-working-homer.html)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School

The nice thing about it, is it helps you to manage the game. If you're looking at 5 - 4 versus 8 - 1, the game is going to be a lot smoother for you. I have read plenty of times out here where we talk about disadvantage with contact. Yea, he foul him but since he didn't lose the ball, play on. Well, my point is this. If you're in a 8-1 situation and the team with 1 just did that. Now they got 2 team fouls. If you're working with a guy that you don't know and he is calling it tight, or working with a homer. You just got to step up and call the game tight yourself to remain consistent at both ends. It's not about calling fouls based on the team foul count. It's about being consistent. What's the best way to determine if you're being consistent based on fouls. Team foul count.

This must be another one of those unspoken/unwritten rules. I'm not affair to tell you the truth because these jackals out here want you to believe that calling fouls by the foul count doesn't happen. Let me tell you it happens and every experienced official out there checks that foul count thru-out the game and adjusts to it if they have too. Everybody does it, they're just never going to admit it in public. In my games, when I'm working with an experienced partner, it's never an issue because we are right there anyway.

One of the best comments I heard was a winning coach telling a losing coach in one of my games I wasn't too proud of. He said, hey, they where not calling it on either sides. They weren't giving you any foul calls and we weren't getting any foul calls either. They were consistent thru-out the whole game.

The thought that foul counts need to be even or close is one of the biggest misconceptions that some coaches have. Consistency is calling a foul every time certain circumstances happen. It is NOT making sure the count is even.

For example, suppose the necessary circumstances for a foul have occured 8 times for one team and 1 time for the other team. Then to be consistent with each occurence you need to have the fouls at 8-1. If you choose to alter what is and what is not a foul in order to make the count more even, then you are being INCONSISTENT.

As has been previously said, some teams will play a style of basketball that lends itself to more fouling. I had one team where the count was 10-1 and they were also winning (somewhat as a result of their aggressive style of play.) The coached whined about about the foul count so I told him that if wanted more "consistency/fairness/etc." I could also even up the score for him since that wasn't even either. Sometimes one team scores more than another (actually in all games!) and sometimes one team fouls more than another. Our job is not to try and make this even, we just keep track.

And in my 20 years of officiating in four sports, I have never worked with someone who I believe intentionally called something against a team.

Calling a foul is a judgement call by the official. We have already proven that out here on this forum. One player may get slapped but since he did not lose control of the ball, no call was made. I would say the results where 50-50, where 50% of us said it is a foul and another 50% said it wasn't. And then another % indicated that if the intensity was high in the game they would call it. My point is calling fouls is a judgement call for the officials and if you should get so lucky to have 4 - 4 teams fouls with 3 minutes left to go in the half. Most people in the gym, the fans, the coaches, the administrators (the people that write the check, it's always good to please these people), the clinicains and even the assigner if present is pleased with that reading. They will all say that's being consistent, they are doing a good job, these are the type of officials we want calling our games.

It's like driving a car. You don't tell a new driver to drive a car and never look at the gas gauge. Just drive the car, don't worry about the gas guage, it will take care of itself. How does that sound?

Wake up, Old School

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School

I would say the results where 50-50, where 50% of us said it is a foul and another 50% said it wasn't. And then another % indicated that if the intensity was high in the game they would call it.

It's like driving a car. You don't tell a new driver to drive a car and never look at the gas gauge. Just drive the car, don't worry about the gas guage, it will take care of itself. How does that sound?

Two things:
1) 50% + 50% + ?% = 100%. Ladies and gentlemen, Yogi Berra is in the building!!!

2) If you drive a car and ONLY look at the gas gauge, you will crash!!!!! Foul counts don't determine whether or not you are calling an even game, only the game film can determine that. If I have a team pressing full court, and one sitting in a passive 2-3 zone, it is almost impossible for the foul counts to be even, unless the pressing team is playing PERFECT defense. Pressing teams with aggressive trapping will almost always foul more than their opponents, unless their opponents apply the same type of pressure. Pressing players get tired more quickly, and then starts the sloppy defense with the hands instead of moving their feet.

This is something you would pick up if you stick around the game of basketball for a while, OLD F.. I mean School.

There may indeed be certain cases where a group officials will be split 50/50 on whether it was a foul. But that does not mean that every possible foul situation will be 50/50 as to whether it is called! Refereeing is not flipping coins.

If both teams were coached identically, had the same plays and style, had the same players (or players that acted identically) then perhaps it could happen that both teams will gravitate towards identical foul counts.

I guess Old School just doesn't get it. The Buffallo Bills have lost four superbowls out of four. So by your logic, the refs must have been inconsistent to allow this to happen. It could not possibly be that the other team played better or the Bills made mistakes, could it?

Are there a lot of fans and coaches who think that the foul counts should be even? Absolutely. But I would also say that the majority of fans think a tipped in bounds pass from the baseline that goes into the backcourt is a violation. Should we start calling it this way to make them happy or should we stick to doing our job and being the ones required to know how it really works. If we can educate these people along the way, great. If we cannot educate them (or Old School) then that's too bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

I would love to work with Homer. D'OH! :p

MMMMMMM Beeeer!!!!!http://www.realbeer.com/edu/images/homer.jpg

Quote:

Originally Posted by wwcfoa43

Refereeing is not flipping coins.

Nobody ever said it was.

Quote:

I guess Old School just doesn't get it. The Buffallo Bills have lost four superbowls out of four. So by your logic, the refs must have been inconsistent to allow this to happen. It could not possibly be that the other team played better or the Bills made mistakes, could it?

What does the Buffalo Bills got to do with this? We are talking bb. I don't recall the Super Bowl the Bills played in being officiated that bad like the one last year that caused the wrong team to win.

Quote:

Should we start calling it this way to make them happy or should we stick to doing our job and being the ones required to know how it really works.

I'm not sure where you're going with this statement. You call the game based on what you see. Basketball is such an subjective sport and I think this is what makes it so popular. There is no one "right" way to call a game.

Why are there so many masochists in this forum? :confused:

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Why are there so many masochists in this forum. :confused:

Do ya think that there should be "Do Not Play With Old School" signs posted? :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School

Nobody ever said it was.

I am glad you agree. In flipping 12 coins, it is very likely that one of the distributions 5-7, 6-6, and 7-5 will occur. However, this is true in coin flipping, not in basketball.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School

You are of the opinion that if events do not break evenly, then the influencers (officials) on the events must be inconsistent. So if you are correct then that means that a team should not lose four superbowls in a row, they should win half.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School

Trying to be objective in a subjective situation is the goal of all officials. That is why we discuss things like advantage/disadvantage on this forum. However, just because it is subjective does not mean we assume that the calls will be split evenly. Every individual call must be analysed based on the rules, our mechanics and philosophies. In the end, the aggregate result does not have be calls evenly split between one team and the other. To assume that they should break that way creates inconsistency.

Quote:

The Buffallo Bills have lost four superbowls out of four.

That's just because they su*k and they're the biggest loser franchise in the history of the NFL........

Oops, sorry, wrong forum, wrong soapbox. :D

What the Hey????

I was confused there. I thought you were talking about the Browns.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old School

You call the game based on what you see. Basketball is such an subjective sport and I think this is what makes it so popular. There is no one "right" way to call a game.

Basketball is not a "subjective" sport, any more than football, soccer or golf. The officials exercise a certain amount of judgment in the very small gray areas of the rules, but the sport itself is very objective.

There is, in fact, one right way to call a game. That is to see to it that the team who is playing the best basketball in this game, wins. And to see that the game is within the boundaries of fair play.

There is some judgment involved for the officials in determining what constitutes a foul in certain cases, and in determining whether or not there is an illegal advantage gained, or an illegal disadvantage conferred, but that is not subjectivity, it is judgment, and those two things are different.

Subjectivity means, "whether I like something, or not", "whether something looks nice to me, or doesn't". That's not the same as judgment. Judgment means making a determination as to where the boundaries are in defining something. It either is a foul or it isn't, and the line needs to be firm, but the line can move slightly according to the judgment of the official. But subjectivity does NOT play a part in the determination. "I don't like that play" is much different from "I always judge that to be a foul".

I suppose some folks won't understand this, but it's important to try. No one wants an official that works from his or her whims and tastes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rainmaker

There is some judgment involved for the officials in determining what constitutes a foul in certain cases, and in determining whether or not there is an illegal advantage gained, or an illegal disadvantage conferred, but that is not subjectivity, it is judgment, and those two things are different.

Subjectivity means, "whether I like something, or not", "whether something looks nice to me, or doesn't". That's not the same as judgment. Judgment means making a determination as to where the boundaries are in defining something. It either is a foul or it isn't, and the line needs to be firm, but the line can move slightly according to the judgment of the official. But subjectivity does NOT play a part in the determination. "I don't like that play" is much different from "I always judge that to be a foul".

I suppose some folks won't understand this, but it's important to try. No one wants an official that works from his or her whims and tastes.

Juulie, we already know he "officiates" games according to what he likes and what he thinks looks pretty. So, in this light, "subjective" probably fits his officiating style more than "judgment."

By the way, they can remove my posts, but I'm still watching for someone deserving of that trophy. :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Juulie, we already know he "officiates" games according to what he likes and what he thinks looks pretty. So, in this light, "subjective" probably fits his officiating style more than "judgment."

Yea, if he officiates at all, which apparently is in doubt. I just think that there are other readers who need to know how far off base this guy is, so they don't look at him as some kind of authority. Because of my many, many posts, I am naturally a much more reliable authority, and everyone should listen to me, rather than Old School!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

By the way, they can remove my posts, but I'm still watching for someone deserving of that trophy. :D

Nobody deserves the Old School Trophy more than Old School.

Nobody!!:)