Working With a Homer
 

Hypothetically speaking. Two questions:
1.What would you do if you're working a game with a partner you don't know well but it becomes very obvious to you from the calls and no calls that you have a real "homer?" What would you do?
2. What if you can tell you have a "homer" but you also are pretty sure that (s)he sincerely doesn't see it? What are your thoughts about these two?

...do as mick suggests....

Get in, Get done, Get out!

If I didn't know the person very well, I would not even consider the possibility that the person was doing it on purpose. In 10+ of officiating, I've never met a fellow official who intentionally made up calls (or ignored calls) in favor of one team. I just don't think it's very likely, so I would not assume it of anyone. I think "a real homer" in your words, is 99.9% a coaches' myth.

If you're seeing the majority of calls going one way, I would take the opportunity at a time-out or halftime to say exactly that. "It seems like all your calls are going against blue tonight. The blue coach is going to pick up on that. Let's keep our eyes peeled and make sure we're not missing anything on white in the second half."

I don't think you can do much else. You certainly can't skew your own calls against the home team to make up for it. Call your best game, try to make your partner aware of it (if you really think it's a problem), and get through it.

I agree with this, visiting teams will remember when a close call goes against them more than if a close call goes for them, simply because it fits the notion of a homer ref.

Although, when I coached a small-school JH, the refs were often teachers from the home school, since it was hard to get a certified ref to drive the distances needed for the JH games. It was almost always a question of poor reffing instead of homerism (is that a word?). I know because I reffed for that school the year before I coached there, and I might have been the world's worst ref ever.:o

I would love to work with Homer. D'OH! :p

:D I have worked with Homer, he's in my association!!!!

I've seen it, twice, by the same offiical in rec league games.

Men's Open league - guy swallows his whistle while B tries to foul and stop the clock. He continues to ignore the foul. Then, during the end of the game and after it, B1 eats his *** up. He does nothing. Neither did I. If he's going to offiicate like that, then I'm not bailing him out.

Next week, we have the same Team B again. B1 comes into the game late, as he arrived late. I'm C, Homer is T tableside. I have B1 down in the baseline corner defending. Homer calls a foul from T. WTF? He reports, we inbound the ball. He does it again. This time, I walk across the floor and tell him if he's going call that ****, he can go over there and inbound it his damnself. At half time, I eat his butt up, telling him he'd never ever pull a stunt like that again. He says, "I'm gonna get him back for the other night."

A year later, Church League Championship game - I saw him intentionally make phantom calls against a team that allowed the opponent to come back from 10 down with less than a minute remaining and win the game.

So I guess he's in that .1%. But don't say it doesn't happen because it does.

If he ever attempts to join our HS association, I'll blackball him in a New York minute.

B1 should have brought a doughnut for T.:D

I don't think I've ever worked with a "homer." There was this one time, however, I believe it was two 7th regional games down in a little, little town. I think that's the closest I've ever came to working with a "homer." Bob, what you say?! :D ;) :) Just playing, of course, hope your family had a great holiday weekend!

To answer the question, I would not assume this person is doing it intentionally. Tell them at half or at some point in the game to try to be consistent. This is the key word. It is not offensive to your partner either to tell them this. Tell them, if it's an offensive foul down here, than it's an offensive foul down there.

In my experience, if my partner appears to be calling the game lopsided, I will try as any good partner should, try to balance out the calls. Sometime this will send a message back to your partner to quit calling it uneven, or they may begin to see the fouls on the other end. More often then not, this has been the response from my partners and this is just what you want.

If these things don't work, then it's out of your control. Don't worry about it unless you truley want to see the other team win.

You have GOT to be kidding. :(

The best thing to do is not to try and balance out the calls. The best thing is to call your game and not worry about your partner until the locker room. Then, if you know he's doing it, tell him/her to knock it off.

To any new refs who may read this!
 

Never, never, never, "balance" out your partner's calls. I can't think of a faster way to end your career. I can't think of a more unfair thing to do.

Let me ask you, Old School, do you also try to balance out calls you know you missed?

Not to worry, ScrappyDoo. The Ol' Feller ain't an official; he's a troll.

So Old School, when the coach is complaining about the foul count. Do you grant him/her their request by evening up the fouls? What about violations?

________________________________________

No homer that time, but in an 8th grade conference championship game in a small, small town not real far from there while I was congratulating his kids on playing a good game, the losing coach told me that I sucked and that I had homered him twice that year. I was impressed! I had never seen his team before and the only game I did in that gym all year was the 8th grade championship. You've gotta be really good to homer someone and not even be there!!!:D

Dang Bob, you're right. You should have got an award or something for pulling that off. ;)

____________________
What Scrapper said. Old School, no offense, but I have to ask, are you really an official or are you just having fun on this forum. Some of your posts really make a bunch of us wonder?

______________________________________

I have enough satisfaction in knowing that the guy is an idiot, he's reached the zenith of his coaching career at age 26 or so, and no other coach in his conference can stand him.

Interesting. Sounds like a true Junior High coach! ;)

I think the key thing here is to be consistent with your calls. If the foul count is 8 to 1, that doesn't seem to be consistent to anyone in the gym. I bet there are calls you could have made that you passed on because you didn't think there was enough disadvangate. I think if you consistently keep calling games uneven like that, it will shorten your career. I also think, smart officiating is keeping foul counts even and trying to be consistent.

Do I make calls to even up the foul count? No, of course not, but I do monitor foul counts.

If my partner if blasting a lot on one team. Then I try to make sure that the same type of foul is being called on the other end.

Proper balance is the key to a good game and a good life.

Peace

So basically what you are getting at here is that if your partner is cheating at one end, you need to make sure you cheat at the other end to even out the cheating???

That is the quickest way I know of to end a career...

That's twisting the words around Rockyroad. That is not what I said.

peace

Whew:confused: :confused:

Aw, all you refs look alike. :)

If you've got an 8-1 foul count, you've probably got a game where 1 team is full court pressing and the other is playing a zone defense. One team is taking it to the paint and the other is shooting 3's. Of course I'm aware of the foul count but I'm not looking to "create" a foul just because. Sure, the coach with 8 fouls is probably going to bring it up but most coaches who are worth a flip know it's just talk. They know why the count is where it is.

You're on your own with this one...Old School

The nice thing about it, is it helps you to manage the game. If you're looking at 5 - 4 versus 8 - 1, the game is going to be a lot smoother for you. I have read plenty of times out here where we talk about disadvantage with contact. Yea, he foul him but since he didn't lose the ball, play on. Well, my point is this. If you're in a 8-1 situation and the team with 1 just did that. Now they got 2 team fouls. If you're working with a guy that you don't know and he is calling it tight, or working with a homer. You just got to step up and call the game tight yourself to remain consistent at both ends. It's not about calling fouls based on the team foul count. It's about being consistent. What's the best way to determine if you're being consistent based on fouls. Team foul count.

This must be another one of those unspoken/unwritten rules. I'm not affair to tell you the truth because these jackals out here want you to believe that calling fouls by the foul count doesn't happen. Let me tell you it happens and every experienced official out there checks that foul count thru-out the game and adjusts to it if they have too. Everybody does it, they're just never going to admit it in public. In my games, when I'm working with an experienced partner, it's never an issue because we are right there anyway.

One of the best comments I heard was a winning coach telling a losing coach in one of my games I wasn't too proud of. He said, hey, they where not calling it on either sides. They weren't giving you any foul calls and we weren't getting any foul calls either. They were consistent thru-out the whole game.

I call on the moderators to find this guy's registration info, and unmask him! He's one of us in disguise!! I vote for Chuck. It's gone to his head!! He's back trying to show us all what not to do. And he'd deliberately made the English so bad that no one would suspect.

Yup, I like it. The Chuck rises again.

Can't be Padgett. There are no high heel sneaker tracks or fishnet prints!:D

The syntax is JMO. That's my vote.

The thought that foul counts need to be even or close is one of the biggest misconceptions that some coaches have. Consistency is calling a foul every time certain circumstances happen. It is NOT making sure the count is even.

For example, suppose the necessary circumstances for a foul have occured 8 times for one team and 1 time for the other team. Then to be consistent with each occurence you need to have the fouls at 8-1. If you choose to alter what is and what is not a foul in order to make the count more even, then you are being INCONSISTENT.

As has been previously said, some teams will play a style of basketball that lends itself to more fouling. I had one team where the count was 10-1 and they were also winning (somewhat as a result of their aggressive style of play.) The coached whined about about the foul count so I told him that if wanted more "consistency/fairness/etc." I could also even up the score for him since that wasn't even either. Sometimes one team scores more than another (actually in all games!) and sometimes one team fouls more than another. Our job is not to try and make this even, we just keep track.

And in my 20 years of officiating in four sports, I have never worked with someone who I believe intentionally called something against a team.

Calling a foul is a judgement call by the official. We have already proven that out here on this forum. One player may get slapped but since he did not lose control of the ball, no call was made. I would say the results where 50-50, where 50% of us said it is a foul and another 50% said it wasn't. And then another % indicated that if the intensity was high in the game they would call it. My point is calling fouls is a judgement call for the officials and if you should get so lucky to have 4 - 4 teams fouls with 3 minutes left to go in the half. Most people in the gym, the fans, the coaches, the administrators (the people that write the check, it's always good to please these people), the clinicains and even the assigner if present is pleased with that reading. They will all say that's being consistent, they are doing a good job, these are the type of officials we want calling our games.

It's like driving a car. You don't tell a new driver to drive a car and never look at the gas gauge. Just drive the car, don't worry about the gas guage, it will take care of itself. How does that sound?

Wake up, Old School
 

Two things:
1) 50% + 50% + ?% = 100%. Ladies and gentlemen, Yogi Berra is in the building!!!

2) If you drive a car and ONLY look at the gas gauge, you will crash!!!!! Foul counts don't determine whether or not you are calling an even game, only the game film can determine that. If I have a team pressing full court, and one sitting in a passive 2-3 zone, it is almost impossible for the foul counts to be even, unless the pressing team is playing PERFECT defense. Pressing teams with aggressive trapping will almost always foul more than their opponents, unless their opponents apply the same type of pressure. Pressing players get tired more quickly, and then starts the sloppy defense with the hands instead of moving their feet.

This is something you would pick up if you stick around the game of basketball for a while, OLD F.. I mean School.

There may indeed be certain cases where a group officials will be split 50/50 on whether it was a foul. But that does not mean that every possible foul situation will be 50/50 as to whether it is called! Refereeing is not flipping coins.

If both teams were coached identically, had the same plays and style, had the same players (or players that acted identically) then perhaps it could happen that both teams will gravitate towards identical foul counts.

I guess Old School just doesn't get it. The Buffallo Bills have lost four superbowls out of four. So by your logic, the refs must have been inconsistent to allow this to happen. It could not possibly be that the other team played better or the Bills made mistakes, could it?

Are there a lot of fans and coaches who think that the foul counts should be even? Absolutely. But I would also say that the majority of fans think a tipped in bounds pass from the baseline that goes into the backcourt is a violation. Should we start calling it this way to make them happy or should we stick to doing our job and being the ones required to know how it really works. If we can educate these people along the way, great. If we cannot educate them (or Old School) then that's too bad.

MMMMMMM Beeeer!!!!!http://www.realbeer.com/edu/images/homer.jpg

Nobody ever said it was.

What does the Buffalo Bills got to do with this? We are talking bb. I don't recall the Super Bowl the Bills played in being officiated that bad like the one last year that caused the wrong team to win.

I'm not sure where you're going with this statement. You call the game based on what you see. Basketball is such an subjective sport and I think this is what makes it so popular. There is no one "right" way to call a game.

Why are there so many masochists in this forum? :confused:

Do ya think that there should be <b>"Do Not Play With Old School"</b> signs posted? :D

I am glad you agree. In flipping 12 coins, it is very likely that one of the distributions 5-7, 6-6, and 7-5 will occur. However, this is true in coin flipping, not in basketball.

You are of the opinion that if events do not break evenly, then the influencers (officials) on the events must be inconsistent. So if you are correct then that means that a team should not lose four superbowls in a row, they should win half.


Trying to be objective in a subjective situation is the goal of all officials. That is why we discuss things like advantage/disadvantage on this forum. However, just because it is subjective does not mean we assume that the calls will be split evenly. Every individual call must be analysed based on the rules, our mechanics and philosophies. In the end, the aggregate result does not have be calls evenly split between one team and the other. To assume that they should break that way creates inconsistency.

That's just because they su*k and they're the biggest loser franchise in the history of the NFL........

Oops, sorry, wrong forum, wrong soapbox. :D

What the Hey????
 

I was confused there. I thought you were talking about the Browns.

Basketball is not a "subjective" sport, any more than football, soccer or golf. The officials exercise a certain amount of judgment in the very small gray areas of the rules, but the sport itself is very objective.

There is, in fact, one right way to call a game. That is to see to it that the team who is playing the best basketball in this game, wins. And to see that the game is within the boundaries of fair play.

There is some judgment involved for the officials in determining what constitutes a foul in certain cases, and in determining whether or not there is an illegal advantage gained, or an illegal disadvantage conferred, but that is not subjectivity, it is judgment, and those two things are different.

Subjectivity means, "whether I like something, or not", "whether something looks nice to me, or doesn't". That's not the same as judgment. Judgment means making a determination as to where the boundaries are in defining something. It either is a foul or it isn't, and the line needs to be firm, but the line can move slightly according to the judgment of the official. But subjectivity does NOT play a part in the determination. "I don't like that play" is much different from "I always judge that to be a foul".

I suppose some folks won't understand this, but it's important to try. No one wants an official that works from his or her whims and tastes.

Juulie, we already know he "officiates" games according to what he likes and what he thinks looks pretty. So, in this light, "subjective" probably fits his officiating style more than "judgment."

By the way, they can remove my posts, but I'm still watching for someone deserving of that trophy. :D

Yea, if he officiates at all, which apparently is in doubt. I just think that there are other readers who need to know how far off base this guy is, so they don't look at him as some kind of authority. Because of my many, many posts, I am naturally a much more reliable authority, and everyone should listen to me, rather than Old School!!

Nobody deserves the <b>Old School Trophy</b> more than <b>Old School</b>.

<b>Nobody!!</b>:)

That would be like giving the Lombardi Trophy to Vince Lombardi. Or giving the Cy Young to Cy Young. Is it fair to the other contenders? It's like asking a young NBA star to be the next Jordan; unfair pressure, I say.

Good point.

Stop right there! Officials exercise a certian amount of judgement in the very small grey areas of the rules? So when you say, there is in fact one right way to call a game and that is to see to it that the team who plays the best wins. Okay, using that mentality, what the hell happen in the super bowl? The biggest game of the year. The best football team that day did not win the super bowl. Was it the officials judgement, subjectivity or objectivity that caused them to rule that Ben R. crossed the goalline and awarded a touchdown?

My point here is if you want to say judgement, fine, say it. When you screw up and make the wrong call, it's the wrong call no matter what hypothesis you want to place on it, and sometimes the wrong team wins the game because of it.

If you want to say they are different, okay, but I think that is beyond the intellect of this board.

That is the best BS that's ever been written on this site and not challenged. Whether I like something or not? Come on, do I look like I was born yesterday? Okay, ponder this. If I like this contact to be a foul, I'm going to call it a foul. If in my judgement, I believe that to be a foul, I'm going to call it a foul. Both hypothesis are correct! Did I go over your head on that one? In order for me to past judgement, there must be some subjectivity to my decision. You can't seperate them IMO. Sometimes, we call fouls that aren't fouls, or pass interfences that aren't past interferences. Did I think in my mind that that was a foul, or did I use poor judgement. Was it my poor judgement or my biased subjectivity that caused me to put air in the whistle and indicate foul. Who cares. I don't think the general public cares as long as you get the right call.

Here's the deal. All officials work from there whims and personnel tastes as well as trying to exercise proper judgement in their decisions. You can't seperate the two. There is subjectivity in everything you do in life. You trying to tell me you don't use it when you officiate basketball? I will telll you, you are a liar. How do you decide which shoes to put on for your games? Do I like this shoe or that shoe. How do you decide if the girl carried the ball? Was it marginal? If it's marginal than it's certainly subjective to how I feel about what I just saw, and when you enter how quick I have to make a decision, subjectivity certainly enters into the picture.

Consider the double dribble I called on the player late in the game. I was behind the player but the player did something that was not natural to me. His feet got crossed up with his next move. Trailing the play because I was the trail and now I'm the new lead. I had to make a quick decision. I didn't like what he just did with the ball, subjective. In order for that to happen, he had to have dribble twice, no, I did not see it, but my subjectivity, my belief is that there is no way he could have done that without double dribbling. So in my judgement, I beleive the player double dribble. The player made it look real good because he covered up his mistake very well, it almost went undetected but my subjectivity (I didn't like what he just did with the ball, it didn't look right, it didn't pass the look test) allowed me to determine (correctly in this case) that he double dribble the ball.

Wow, that was the best BS line I've seen in a long time, and you guys just ate it up. Wow, I think I'm in another world when people start talking like that and it doesn't get challenged. You all must think alike out here. A wise man once said. If everyone thinks alike, then no one is really thinking.

Okay, I get the trophy for finally getting a rise out of him!!

Thank you, thank you so much, I"ll be here all weekend...

Don't forget to tip your waitress...

I always find it quite humorous when individuals call out the many on a question of intelligence, but then can't even spell the word (in this case 'interlect'[sic]) correctly...

So many insults, so little time....

JMO has found a new home.<i></i>

WOW!! This is the first time I've ever seen evidence of a REC LEAGUE game refereeed using 3-man.