Which Way do you prefer????

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

Glad you bought this up. Another thing to consider. There are some better than thou officials out here who go by the thinking that only the R calls back a bad toss. I'm not in total disagreement on this because nobody knows better that the toss is off than the person that tossed it. However, my problem is by the time the R gets the whistle back in his mouth and ready to blow, the ball is already half way down the court, and more often than not, the R will just let it go. Which is why I blast it right away to stop the play.

Sigh....TrollBoy strikes again with more completely misleading and completely wrong statements.

From the NFHS OFFICIALS MANUAL- If the toss is poor, any of the officials shall sound the whistle immediately, signal the clock should not start and order a rejump". NCAA uses the exact same mechanic.

The only one thinking like you is you. Real officials know what the proper procedures and mechanics to follow are.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

You cannot toss the ball too high, since by rule you are supposed to toss it higher than either jumper can jump.

6-3-4 . . . The referee shall then toss the ball upward between the jumpers in a plane at right angles to the sidelines. The toss shall be to a height greater than either of them can jump so that it will drop between them.

He just doesn't know the basics, Jim.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Old School

To the second point. If you toss the ball too high, and both jumpers miss it. I will blow it and dare you to say something to me about it in the locker room.

I would take you up on that dare. What does the rule book say is "too high"? When are you going to blow the whistle and when will you let it go? We will have that discussion.

Originally Posted by Old School

If I'm a clincian, I going to take a point off for throwing the ball too high, although I will admit. I would take more points off for a toss too short and you got players that can jump..

I have been to over 40 high school and college camps in my career and that has never been brought up as an issue. My partners will catch heck for not blowing back a bad toss before I will catch it for the bad toss.

Originally Posted by Old School

Actually, I think you need to give this some thought. When evaluating who may go to the playoff's and who's going to be the lead official. I bet there might be discussions on who tosses good and who doesn't, and this person will be selected the R.

That is not even a factor in the state of Illinois, or in the college ranks. The R is determined by a number of factors, including experience, rules knowledge, court presence, and sometimes, by coin flip. In fact, in NCAA-W, the R can designate who does the toss. So how does "tossing ability" become a factor in who is the R?

I will be happy to discuss these issues further, but you have ignored my previous questions. This leads me to believe that JR is correct in his assessment. There are a number of new officials that come to this forum for information, and they will gladly admit they are new and/or inexperienced. There will be many disagreements even among the experienced officials, but it would be a shame for the less experienced ones to accept obviously incorrect information.

Just a thought...

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

Glad you bought this up. Another thing to consider. 1. There are some better than thou officials out here who go by the thinking that only the R calls back a bad toss. I'm not in total disagreement on this because nobody knows better that the toss is off than the person that tossed it. However, my problem is by the time the R gets the whistle back in his mouth and ready to blow, the ball is already half way down the court, and more often than not, the R will just let it go. Which is why I blast it right away to stop the play.

2. To the second point. If you toss the ball too high, and both jumpers miss it. I will blow it and dare you to say something to me about it in the locker room. 3. If I'm a clincian, I going to take a point off for throwing the ball too high, although I will admit. 4. I would take more points off for a toss too short and you got players that can jump.

5. Actually, I think you need to give this some thought. When evaluating who may go to the playoff's and who's going to be the lead official. I bet there might be discussions on who tosses good and who doesn't, and this person will be selected the R. What I'm saying is if you got a strong 3-person crew and the decision is being made, who's going to be the lead official in this crew, everything else being equal of course. I would not doubt that the decision to be the R might come down to the person who tosses it the best.

6. Just a thought....

This is fun. I have numbered your points above in the order I will address them.

1. No one here ever said this. In fact, it's generally the U's job to do this; but the R can certainly do it.

2. If you blow it dead because I tossed it "too high," I will say something to you about it in the dressing room. I will also say something to the assignor after the game.

3. I'm not sure what a "clincian" is, but it's obvious you're not a clinician. There's no rule that allows you to call this back, and a clinician wouldn't advocate doing so.

4. I have no idea if they "can jump" or not, so throw it high regardless. Don't blow it dead unless there's a violation or the toss doesn't go straight up.

5. You have no idea how the process goes for playoff evaluation, you've made that much obvious.

6. You should have kept it a thought rather than broadcasting it. "Better to keep quiet and letter others think you're an idiot than to open your mouth and prove them right."

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

That is not even a factor in the state of Illinois, or in the college ranks. The R is determined by a number of factors, including experience, rules knowledge, court presence, and sometimes, by coin flip. In fact, in NCAA-W, the R can designate who does the toss. So how does "tossing ability" become a factor in who is the R?

This is an NCAA rule, not just an NCAA Women's rule.

I will say that if the R is designated by an assignor, he does not pick this based on something as minor as to whether you can toss the ball. At the Varsity level or college level, the R is an important position if for no other reason but symbolic. Usually the senior or well respected officials are always the R. Maybe this is the reason Ed Hightower is almost always the R in his games.

Peace

[Adam]

One more point, for now. I think it would be generally assumed that anyone with the experience required to be an R in any game at the HS varsity level or above is going to have an adequate toss. To suggest that the R may be decided based on who has the best toss would suggest that some aren't competent at it. That's not going to happen at this level.

[bronco]

A coach's perspective.

1-Almost all tosses are good enough, probably over 99%. Also, it is easy enough to correct if there is a bad toss, so I don't see why that would be a factor in how decisions would be made for who is R or who is moving up.

2-When I played, a ref would often say, "I'm going to throw it high," as he came into the center circle. That seemed effective to me in getting a legal toss and getting the jumpers to know not to jump quickly and try to steal it.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This is an NCAA rule, not just an NCAA Women's rule.

I wasn't 100% sure, so I mentioned the part I knew.

I also knew there would be someone who would straighten me out.

[Junker]

I was taught to use one hand and make sure not to dip my hand before I toss. To work on the toss, I stand next to the rim on a court and try to toss it as close to the rim as I can without hitting it, aiming above the rim in accordance with the level I usually work (better athletes need a higher toss).

[Old School]

Gentlemen, I'm glad I sparked such a intense discussion among us referee's. It always good when we start to challenge each others knowledge and most importantly understanding of the rules. Let me respond to you. First of all, Snaqwells says this...

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If I ever have a U call back my toss because the players missed it and looked awkward, we're having some unpleasant words at half time.

Then I say, if I think the toss is bad I have no problems as the U calling a retoss and dare you to say something to me about it in the locker room. Then JR makes my point.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

From the NFHS OFFICIALS MANUAL- If the toss is poor, any of the officials shall sound the whistle immediately, signal the clock should not start and order a rejump". NCAA uses the exact same mechanic.

But the point here is this. If the toss is a couple inches (give or take) higher than the jumper highest reach, this is a good toss. I'm not calling that back and here's the reason why.

JR, at this point in his career has separated himself from the player part of the game. He is strictly focus on the rules and rulebook. I, on the other hand still play the game and come from this at a players prospective as well as a referee. I have the interest of both in mind when I consider the rule. JR only considers the word. For example: the rules says

6-3-4 . . . The referee shall then toss the ball upward between the jumpers... The toss shall be to a height greater than either of them can jump so that it will drop between them.

If you toss the ball a few inches higher than either of them can jump. Guess what? There's this thing call "hang time" when you jump. A lot of good athletes can jump up and hang in the air so that if the ball is not toss too high, it will come down while they are still in the air and they will successfully tip it. Hang time people! Remember, Dr.J could jump from the FT line and hang (time) in the air until he dunk the ball. If you throw the ball 2, 3, 4 FEET higher than these guys can jump. There is no way they are going to tip the ball before they return to the floor and this is when I say beep, retoss. A few inches higher, perfect. A few feet higher, no, not in my opinion.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I would take you up on that dare. What does the rule book say is "too high"? When are you going to blow the whistle and when will you let it go? We will have that discussion.

This is, IMHO, a proper question to ask. I believe I answer it above. The book does not say too high, so technically, by the written word, you could throw the ball up to the ceiling and this still be a legal toss as long as it's straight. This is where I come in and say let's be reasonable here.

And finally, Rule 6.3.7a: Neither jumper shall: Touch the toss ball before it reaches it's highest point.

If we're tossing the ball by rule higher than the player can jump, and by rule, the player should not tough the ball until it's coming back down. Why is 90% of the R tosses not going up high enough? Nobody is following the rule when it comes to the jump ball because 90% of you don't even throw it up high enough. Oh, but you can jump all over me for not knowing that you don't touch the ball until it's coming down. But you say nothing to the 90-99% of you who allow the ball to be touched BEFORE it reaches it highest point. Sounds a bit hypocritical to me.

peace.

[Dan_ref]

We interrupt this topic for an important message:

"Hang time" is a myth.

The amount of "hang time" anything has depends on the speed and angle it leaves the ground at and the force of gravity. You can only control the speed & angle you leave the ground at. I don't care who you are - once you've left the ground there is nothing you can do about gravity dragging you back down at a predictable rate.

We now return you to your original topic.

[Junker]

I disagree with the post stating that the R can blow the toss dead. By rule any official can, but the R won't have a whistle in his or her mouth. The U or one of the U's should be the ones blowing a bad toss. From my experience, I'm usually more critical of my toss than my partners are. I usually have one a year I would have blown dead on myself but they let it go. By the time I can get my whistle in my mouth, play has started and I figure we might as well keep moving.

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by jontheref

Just practicing outside my tosses for the start of the season. Just interested in what is the popular approach.

A-- One hand overhead and push (the Steve Wehlmer approach)
B-- Two hand underhand (The Jim Burr method)
C-- One hand underhand

Which do you think is more accurate???

I prefer A. I get between the two players and put the ball in the air after I have it up with my arm extended. Thats that only way I can get a good toss!!!!

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

You cannot toss the ball too high, since by rule you are supposed to toss it higher than either jumper can jump.

6-3-4 . . . The referee shall then toss the ball upward between the jumpers in a plane at right angles to the sidelines. The toss shall be to a height greater than either of them can jump so that it will drop between them.

Ummm, so they are suppose to hit it on the way down....go figure!!!!

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

Gentlemen, I'm glad I sparked such a intense discussion among us referee's.
(snipped a bunch of crap)
If we're tossing the ball by rule higher than the player can jump, and by rule, the player should not tough the ball until it's coming back down. Why is 90% of the R tosses not going up high enough? Nobody is following the rule when it comes to the jump ball because 90% of you don't even throw it up high enough. Oh, but you can jump all over me for not knowing that you don't touch the ball until it's coming down. But you say nothing to the 90-99% of you who allow the ball to be touched BEFORE it reaches it highest point. Sounds a bit hypocritical to me.

First of all, you're not allowed to say "us" here, not before the word "referee's" (sic).
Second, 90%? I've only had two tosses stolen in my entire career. The first one caught me off guard and we kicked it. I had the same team the next game, and he tried it again.

JR didn't make your point. JR said any official can call back a bad toss. You're calling back legal tosses because you don't think they look pretty enough.

I didn't say I have a problem with the U calling back a bad toss. I have a problem with the U calling back a legal toss because the jumpers mis-timed their jumps and it looked awkward.