NEW Case Book ruling!!!

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

What if his player got injured and had to be attended to on the floor during the buzzer beater attempt? He would need to use a TO to keep this kid in the game and allow him to start the extra period. There are good reasons that this might come up.

Rule reference please.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Rule reference please.

3-3-5 What am I missing?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

3-3-5 What am I missing?

So, at the end of the 1st half A1 gets hurt and the coach(es)/trainer come(s) on the court to tend to A1. A1 is not allowed to start the 2nd half unless Team A takes a time-out?

[Jimgolf]

Maybe a more likely example is a player off to the rest room during the intermission that hasn't returned yet.

Anyway, he's got 11-14 other players. Get 5 players in there and play ball. You ought to be able to make it through one play without a player.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

So, at the end of the 1st half A1 gets hurt and the coach(es)/trainer come(s) on the court to tend to A1. A1 is not allowed to start the 2nd half unless Team A takes a time-out?

****ing aright he's playing!

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

So, at the end of the 1st half A1 gets hurt and the coach(es)/trainer come(s) on the court to tend to A1. A1 is not allowed to start the 2nd half unless Team A takes a time-out?

That's what the rule says.

If the team has to take 8 minutes to treat this injured player, are you now going to tell the coach that he only gets 2 minutes with the rest of his team for halftime? I'm sure that will go over well.

I wouldn't start any time-out or intermission period until the injury situation has been resolved. Otherwise you are going to screw that team out of at least part of its allotted time.

That philosophy is expressed in this Case Book play:
REPLACEMENT OF A DISQUALIFIED OR INJURED PLAYER
10.5.3 SITUATION A: A1 has been injured and has received extensive medical attention on the court. The coach: (a) helps assist the injured player to the bench; or (b) remains at the bench area while A1 is treated and helped to the bench. How much time does the coach have to replace A1? RULING: In both (a) and (b), the coach will have 30 seconds to replace the injured player. In (a), the 30 seconds should start after the coach can turn his/her attention from the injured athlete to the duty of making a replacement. In (b), the 30 seconds would begin as soon as A1 has been returned to the bench. In both cases, the timer should be instructed by the official when to start timing the 30 seconds, sound a warning horn at 20 seconds and to notify the official when the allowed time has elapsed.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I wouldn't start any time-out or intermission period until the injury situation has been resolved.

You're going to enforce the 30 second limit to replace this injured player during halftime? During the intermission, he is not a player, he is bench personnel. 4-34-1 & 4-34-2

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I wouldn't start any time-out or intermission period until the injury situation has been resolved.

Originally Posted by just another ref

You're going to enforce the 30 second limit to replace this injured player during halftime? During the intermission, he is not a player, he is bench personnel. 4-34-1 & 4-34-2

You make an good point about the definition of a player and his status during the halftime intermission. There is no disputing that.

However, we need to consider some other things too.

1. When does the halftime intermission start? Normally it starts with the ending of the second quarter. If someone is injured on that final play, is this still the case?

2. What was the status of the kid at the time he became injured? Let's see the ball was live during the 2nd quarter...seems like he was a player.
Does that matter?
3-3-5 says "a player who has been injured." Has been is past tense. Should 3-3-5 apply to him or does his status immediately revert to bench personnel with the sounding of the horn (ending of the try for goal), and thus this kid is a team member who is being treated on the court by bench personnel? These are definitely questions that we should attempt to answer in striving to make the correct ruling.

3. What if the situation takes 20 minutes to resolve? Let's say that the player hit his head and they won't risk moving him until the trainer on site says he can get up. Furthermore, suppose that the kid turns out to be ok and those treating him were just being extra cautious. Can he now take the court to start the 3rd quarter? The team trainer/doctor says that it is fine.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

You make an good point about the definition of a player and his status during the halftime intermission. There is no disputing that.

However, we need to consider some other things too.

1. When does the halftime intermission start? Normally it starts with the ending of the second quarter. If someone is injured on that final play, is this still the case?

The quarter ends when the ball becomes dead...which is when time expires or an airborne try ends or after all FTs have been shot. A player that is injured as the quarter ends does not extend the quarter.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

2. What was the status of the kid at the time he became injured? Let's see the ball was live during the 2nd quarter...seems like he was a player.
Does that matter?
3-3-5 says "a player who has been injured." Has been is past tense. Should 3-3-5 apply to him or does his status immediately revert to bench personnel with the sounding of the horn (ending of the try for goal), and thus this kid is a team member who is being treated on the court by bench personnel? These are definitely questions that we should attempt to answer in striving to make the correct ruling.

The time that the player is injured is not relevant. What is relevant is when the player is attended to....which is during intermission.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

3. What if the situation takes 20 minutes to resolve? Let's say that the player hit his head and they won't risk moving him until the trainer on site says he can get up. Furthermore, suppose that the kid turns out to be ok and those treating him were just being extra cautious. Can he now take the court to start the 3rd quarter? The team trainer/doctor says that it is fine.

Not gonna happen....but an interesting question. Not sure. I think he was unconcioius.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The quarter ends when the ball becomes dead...which is when time expires or an airborne try ends or after all FTs have been shot. A player that is injured as the quarter ends does not extend the quarter.

While the rules book clearly spells out when a quarter ends, it does not state nearly as clearly when the intermission is to begin. Most of us understand it to begin immediately, but that is under normal circumstances.

Plus there is one substantial gray area.

5-6-2 EXCEPTIONS:...
3. If a foul occurs so near the expiration of time that the timer cannot get the clock stopped before time expires or after time expires, but while the ball is in flight during a try or tap for field goal. The quarter or extra period ends when the free throw(s) and all related activity have been completed. ...

To examine this phrase consider the following play which includes a foul.

If airborne A1 trys for goal just prior to the horn sounding and then charges into B1 prior to returning to the floor causing B1 to be injured on the play and require treatment on the playing floor, is the time it takes to attend to B1 considered part of that quarter? Is the injury to B1 and his treatment on the floor "related activity" which has not yet been completed?

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The time that the player is injured is not relevant. What is relevant is when the player is attended to....which is during intermission.

Really? Where does it say that? 3-3-5 specifies that it must be a player who is injured and also states WHERE the coach or bench personnel must be beckoned, but it says nothing about WHEN.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Not gonna happen....but an interesting question. Not sure. I think he was unconcioius.

Still doesn't solve the issue though. When the team doctor writes out a note for you on the spot are you going to allow the kid to start the 3rd quarter?

[Ignats75]

I have to agree with Nevada on this. The Casebook does allow the coach to have his full allotted time for a time out after addressing an injury. Since there is no case study for the same scenario at intermission, I've got to believe the same scenario applies. The referees should stay on the floor until all members of both teams are in the locker room. I would have the table not start the halftime clock until the player is removed from the floor carried or on his/her own power and we start for our locker room.

Still doesn't solve the issue though. When the team doctor writes out a note for you on the spot are you going to allow the kid to start the 3rd quarter?

If he is a Doctor, and the note is more than scribbled on a napkin (say on a perscription pad), we as officials are not members of the AMA. We have received the only verification we need. If the player is endangered, we are not responsible, and 2-8-5 says the player can play.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

If he is a Doctor, and the note is more than scribbled on a napkin (say on a perscription pad), we as officials are not members of the AMA. We have received the only verification we need. If the player is endangered, we are not responsible, and 2-8-5 says the player can play.

I'm not advocating that we bar the kid from further participation in the game, I'm only stating that it is my belief that he cannot START the third quarter unless his team takes a time-out since no time has come off the clock following his being injured.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That's what the rule says.

If the team has to take 8 minutes to treat this injured player, are you now going to tell the coach that he only gets 2 minutes with the rest of his team for halftime? I'm sure that will go over well.

I wouldn't start any time-out or intermission period until the injury situation has been resolved. Otherwise you are going to screw that team out of at least part of its allotted time.

That philosophy is expressed in this Case Book play:
REPLACEMENT OF A DISQUALIFIED OR INJURED PLAYER
10.5.3 SITUATION A: A1 has been injured and has received extensive medical attention on the court. The coach: (a) helps assist the injured player to the bench; or (b) remains at the bench area while A1 is treated and helped to the bench. How much time does the coach have to replace A1? RULING: In both (a) and (b), the coach will have 30 seconds to replace the injured player. In (a), the 30 seconds should start after the coach can turn his/her attention from the injured athlete to the duty of making a replacement. In (b), the 30 seconds would begin as soon as A1 has been returned to the bench. In both cases, the timer should be instructed by the official when to start timing the 30 seconds, sound a warning horn at 20 seconds and to notify the official when the allowed time has elapsed.

Why are you arguing how long it takes to get him off the floor? That has absolutely nothing to do with our discussion.

The discussion is can he start the next period. There's absolutely nothing that says he can't start the next period if the coach so designates. Play was not stopped so he could be attended to. He became bench personnel when the previous period ended. The coach now has to designate his 5 starters for the next period.

Don't be a plumber.

[Nevadaref]

[quote=BktBallRef]Why are you arguing how long it takes to get him off the floor? ...
Play was not stopped so he could be attended to. ...quote]

That's why. If the player is injured and attended to on the floor for 20 minutes, then the game obviously is going to be held up for him because halftime is only 10 minutes in length (15 max under special circumstances).

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

If the player is injured and attended to on the floor for 20 minutes, then the game obviously is going to be held up for him because halftime is only 10 minutes in length (15 max under special circumstances).

And if the game isn't held up, there's no rule that I know of that says that any listed teammember can't start the third quarter. What happens between periods from a medical standpoint isn't our business, unless we absolutely knew that a player lost consciousness or something.

Don't be a plumber.