Flagrant AND Intentional?

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

PS Did I mention that this was one of the two questions that I missed on the exam? Of course, I'm not bitter about it. No siree ...

Well, now those of us who have not yet taken the test have a) learned something very important and b) got one fewer mistake to make on the test. I'll let you know which 12 I miss instead.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

4-19-4 ... "It may or may not be intentional." and question #27 on the exam.

Sigh.....

It may or may not be an intentional act, not an intentional foul. The FED shoulda used a word like "deliberate" instead of "intentional". Mighta stopped you from getting all excited.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

PS Did I mention that this was one of the two questions that I missed on the exam? Of course, I'm not bitter about it. No siree ...

I got it right. It ain't the first time that the FED has pulled this one, cunning linguists that they are.

Stoopid question all the way around. There's absolutely no point to it imo.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I got it right. It ain't the first time that the FED has pulled this one, cunning linguists that they are.

Stoopid question all the way around. There's absolutely no point to it imo.

I agree.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Sigh.....

It may or may not be an intentional act, not an intentional foul. The FED shoulda used a word like "deliberate" instead of "intentional". Mighta stopped you from getting all excited.

That's an excellent word, JR. I am going to suggest that as an editorial change for next season. [Change the word "intentional" to "deliberate" in 4-19-4.] That should take care of this kind of confusion.

BTW, can anyone provide an example of a flagrant foul that is not deliberate, done on purpose, or "intentional" ?

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That's an excellent word, JR. I am going to suggest that as an editorial change for next season. [Change the word "intentional" to "deliberate" in 4-19-4.] That should take care of this kind of confusion.

I'm all for this.

Personally, I"d rather have the name of the category of fouls changed. It's so annoying to have to keep explaining over and over and over again that just because a foul isn't intentional doesn't mean it's not intentional, and vice versa.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

BTW, can anyone provide an example of a flagrant foul that is not deliberate, done on purpose, or "intentional" ?

A1 thinks he's been fouled, but no whistle and play continues, he does one of those swinging-his-arm-in-frustration moves and accidentally clocks B2 in the face whom he didn't notice standing right next to him.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

can anyone provide an example of a flagrant foul that is not deliberate, done on purpose, or "intentional" ?

Years ago, boys JV. A1 has a breakaway with B1 in hot pursuit. Somehow, just as A1 went up for the shot, he changed his angle to the basket, and apparently fooled B1, who was just leaving the floor in an attempt to block the shot. All this resulted in B1 making a windmill swing which was more or less parallel to the floor. Not sure, but I don't think he got any part of the ball. What he got was A1's head. It looked a lot like a linebacker knocking down a running back waiting to catch a screen pass. I was trail, partner made the call. I rushed in to get between B1 and anybody looking for revenge. (there was none) B1 was quickly and convincingly remorseful. "I'm sorry Mr. Ref. I didn't mean to.....etc." I said "OK, son, I believe you, but I think you're gonna have to sit the rest of this one out." He didn't. Partner called it intentional, but to me this foul really fit well under the heading, "of a violent or savage nature."

[just another ref]

In laymen's terms, I would say that the word flagrant trumps the word intentional. Thus the penalty is raised. flagrant=intentional + ejection
Which brings to mind another question. I should know this but I don't. Has the provision to call a foul intentional for excessive contact even when playing the ball always been there, or is it a recent or fairly recent editorial change? My idea is that, whenever this part appeared, it was done to give a little wiggle room when B1 knocks A1's shot into the rafters, but on the way down plants A1 into the wall. "Gee, that should be something besides just two free throws, but I hate to kick this kid out." A compromise, if you will.

With all this in mind, can anyone say where the line is to be drawn between contact that is "excessive," but not "violent or savage?"

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by just another ref

In laymen's terms, I would say that the word flagrant trumps the word intentional. Thus the penalty is raised. flagrant=intentional + ejection
Which brings to mind another question. I should know this but I don't. Has the provision to call a foul intentional for excessive contact even when playing the ball always been there, or is it a recent or fairly recent editorial change? My idea is that, whenever this part appeared, it was done to give a little wiggle room when B1 knocks A1's shot into the rafters, but on the way down plants A1 into the wall. "Gee, that should be something besides just two free throws, but I hate to kick this kid out." A compromise, if you will.

With all this in mind, can anyone say where the line is to be drawn between contact that is "excessive," but not "violent or savage?"

The line is the same as the one between playing the ball and playing the person. If you're trying to block the shot and the shooter gets whammed, intentional. If you're trying to wham the shooter, flagrant.

As far as I know the use of intentional for excessive contact has been there for the last 8 years (my total tenure). I don't know when the distinction was made.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

If you're trying to block the shot and the shooter gets whammed, intentional. If you're trying to wham the shooter, flagrant.

Not necessarily. We've already established that no certain intent is necessary for a foul to be called flagrant. In the situation I posted earlier in this thread, I genuinely believe that the player's intent was to stop a shot, nothing more. Trouble is, he missed. He did indeed wham the shooter. Was it excessive contact, or was it of a violent or savage nature? Partner and I both had good looks, but he made one call while I would have made the other.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Not necessarily. We've already established that no certain intent is necessary for a foul to be called flagrant. In the situation I posted earlier in this thread, I genuinely believe that the player's intent was to stop a shot, nothing more. Trouble is, he missed. He did indeed wham the shooter. Was it excessive contact, or was it of a violent or savage nature? Partner and I both had good looks, but he made one call while I would have made the other.

I feel free to say this, knowing that others will chime in if they think I am wrong. I'm not 100% sure about this, but I've always thought that a flagrant foul was something that happened out of anger or disrespect. No matter how rough, an honest attempt to play the ball should be considered as intentional at the worst.

Am I incorrect in this, Jurassic, or Tony? Can't ask Chuck, although I suppose he could e-mail me, or send a PM. Nevada? Jeff?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

I'm not 100% sure about this, but I've always thought that a flagrant foul was something that happened out of anger or disrespect. No matter how rough, an honest attempt to play the ball should be considered as intentional at the worst.

Am I incorrect in this, Jurassic, or Tony?

You're incorrect. Just read rule 4-19-4.

"A flagrant foul may be a personal foul...of a violent or savage nature".

"If personal, it involves, but is not limited to violent contact such as striking, kicking and kneeing"

It's always a judgement call by each individual official, but playing the ball isn't a determining factor as to whether a foul might be flagrant or not. How you played the ball is. If you play the ball and while doing so put a shooter into a basket support and injured them, you should be sitting down every time imo.